Olympic Sports: Culture, Doping, and Sportmanship

[Drakain]

I found this article today:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Olympians.html

Fair warning: Don't read this article if you don't want to find out about the women's swimming race.

I found this article objectionable for a couple of reasons. First, the contents bothered me and surprised me. I knew that some countries approached Olympic sports differently, but I didn't know it was so systematized in China. Yikes!

Second, I felt that this article kind of dragged Ye-Shiwen in the mud and diminished her accomplishment by implying drug use and worse, the last couple of paragraphs were kind of a slap in the face when it basically intimated they 'hoped' the record would stand. On the other hand, the story of how the unsuccessful trainees are essentially cut lose and abandoned when swimming was all they knew is pretty horrific.

What do you guys think? It's hard to argue against the dominance China has in a lot of Olympic sports, and I don't begrudge their medalists hard work and achievements, but do you think these athletes are being victimized? How wide spread do you think performance enhancing drugs are, and is do you think it's unsportsmanlike and unfair to use them?

Here's another interesting issue: as many of you may recall the last Olympics showcased how certain swimwear designs improve performance. Those suits are now prohibited from the sport. Do you think those old records should stand? Does the technological advantage conferred on those athletes diminish their records or their accomplishments?

[Deleted]

They should hold a parallel Olympics for drug users. Competitors can take as many steroids as they want. I'd pay to watch that.

The thing about technological advantages is, if some competitors have access to them and some don't - that's an uneven playing surface. If you get them to ALL the competitors then it sort-of balances out, but then they cancel each other out so you might as well ban them anyway. If it makes ALL the swimmers 1 second faster it just makes the race 1 second shorter.

[Drungan]

First off ... China and other countries do *find* there ahtletes at a very young age i heared down to age 6 ... and train them from there with the accept from the family ofc.
if this is right or wrong i wont be the judge of but it does form a ahtlet and possibly make them better at a younger age ... same thing goes on in some western countries with sports like Tennis tho its more the parrents that does this.

Drugs ... drugs are bad. for now there is no evidance that the chineese swimmer is drugged in any way .. so i choose to belive this is just a truely skilled youngster, will i be shocked if it tourns out there is faul play ? .. no not realy i have seen too much tour de france i guess .....

swimwear well i dunno other sports getting better gear so i guess wimmers can also ...

[semaphore]

I found this article objectionable for a couple of reasons.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk

Yeah...

For what it's worth I doubt any doping could have escaped testing.

[ashblond]

When Michale Phelps won 8 gold medals at Beijing, it is totally normal without any doubt of drugs from western countries.

When this Chinese girl won a gold medal, there is no way she has the skill to win and there must be some drugs related, even she passed the test.

So, yeah, this UK paper is totally unbiased and valid.

[Tierbook]

When Michale Phelps won 8 gold medals at Beijing, it is totally normal without any doubt of drugs from western countries.

When this Chinese girl won a gold medal, there is no way she has the skill to win and there must be some drugs related, even she passed the test.

So, yeah, this UK paper is totally unbiased and valid.

well who do you think would win in a race the athletic white dude or the tiny chinese girl?

[Deleted]

I'm amazed the world's biggest police state allowed a camera into their training camps.

[Tydrane]

I hate to admit that I'm skeptical of the Chinese girl's performance. I grew up watching Olympics where time and again, Chinese swimmers were caught out for using drugs. A lot of people are coming out to say that shaving 5 seconds of her PB isn't a rare occurrence, I'm just still highly skeptical given that her final lap clocked in at faster than the mens' gold medallist's, and Michael Phelps' (as an Aussie, it does sting to recognise Phelps is a great swimmer). She also has a pretty lacklustre pre-Olympics career.

Speaking of sportsmanship, though, the US coach who sparked the row has copped a fair bit of criticism for being "un-sportsmanlike". I'd actually turn that charge around on China in general, not necessarily as a flaw, but just to say that they approach the Olympics with the wrong attitude. It's not about winning, or being the best - sure, those are the goals of every Olympian, but it's about a good-natured sports meet. China seem to have something to prove, even if they aren't doping their athletes, they are putting them through rigorous training regimes, treating them more like machines than people, all to prove how strong and powerful their socialist paradise is. It just smacks of the Berlin propaganda Olympics attitude to me.

[Deleted]

I'm not going to pass judgement on whether or not the girl was on something, her most recent race wasn't really indicative of PEDs but it's certainly possible she was hold back. That said, while it's possible, there's still no evidence whatsoever to support the claims that she was on drugs other than an exceptional time so really I think it's quite insulting to drag her name through the dirt for something that is essentially a baseless accusation. As for Chinas training regimes, I don't know why it's that surprising, the concerns have been raised with Russia in the past and this problem exists in almost all sports.

It's also worth noting that it's a Daily Mail article and that's possibly even worse than FOX news.

[Jackmoves]

They test the athletes almost weekly, it's quite hard to get away with it nowdays. Not saying it can't happen, but it's really hard.

All the athletes that perform at this(olympics etc) level are massive headcases tbh. You are not gonna reach the top if you are not. I saw a documentary recently where they interviewed a bunch of swedish athles that has been or are at really good(Sussana Kallur-100m hurdles, she holds the world indoor record for 60 m hurdles, Christian Olsson-Olympic gold medalist in triple jump, etc) and they are quite mad. They sign up for self-torture pretty much. I'm sure some countries like China are worse but again, all these athletes are just massive headcases, it's very impressive what they do/can do though.

[conscript]

When Michale Phelps won 8 gold medals at Beijing, it is totally normal without any doubt of drugs from western countries.

When this Chinese girl won a gold medal, there is no way she has the skill to win and there must be some drugs related, even she passed the test.

So, yeah, this UK paper is totally unbiased and valid.

It isn't about winning at all. The question people brought up was how her splits were better than the best male equivalent and were drastic improvements over her historical speeds on the freestyle segment. I doubt she was doping, but as the critics have said, there is a historical precedent for drug use when there is a sudden spike in a swimmer's speed. Its one thing to be an athletic freak with a body that is essentially perfect like Phelps and for a swimmer to suddenly swim faster than she ever has and that almost anyone ever has. The conditions that they train in are irrelevant to the conversation. Everyone knows that sports in China and sports in the West are completely, completely different. Here it is largely a past time, a hobby, something you do for fun. Over there it is forcefully ingrained in you depending on your attributes. Its just how it is and how it always will be. Going through years of alleged abuse, in the eyes of our societies, is 100% irrelevant to her suddenly destroying the world record and obliterating her personal best in a completely incredible freestyle section.

And please, China has a long history of cheating in Olympic and international events, not that most countries don't. They had a swimmer already test positive this year and get kicked out by their own doping testers. Last Olympics they won the gymnastics gold with a couple girls who were 14 according to every source of information every filed about them except for the two passports presented to the IOC, the only proof required. China's own gymnastics database had them at 14. They had participated in youth events at ages that would make them 14.

[zorkuus]

They should hold a parallel Olympics for drug users. Competitors can take as many steroids as they want. I'd pay to watch that.

I'd rather watch them compete high on weed. Now that would be entertainment. The 100 meter dash would be the new marathon. At checkpoints there would be cheetos and a couch to catch breath.

[Bolson13]

It isn't about winning at all. The question people brought up was how her splits were better than the best male equivalent and were drastic improvements over her historical speeds on the freestyle segment. I doubt she was doping, but as the critics have said, there is a historical precedent for drug use when there is a sudden spike in a swimmer's speed. Its one thing to be an athletic freak with a body that is essentially perfect like Phelps and for a swimmer to suddenly swim faster than she ever has and that almost anyone ever has. The conditions that they train in are irrelevant to the conversation. Everyone knows that sports in China and sports in the West are completely, completely different. Here it is largely a past time, a hobby, something you do for fun. Over there it is forcefully ingrained in you depending on your attributes. Its just how it is and how it always will be. Going through years of alleged abuse, in the eyes of our societies, is 100% irrelevant to her suddenly destroying the world record and obliterating her personal best in a completely incredible freestyle section.

And please, China has a long history of cheating in Olympic and international events, not that most countries don't. They had a swimmer already test positive this year and get kicked out by their own doping testers. Last Olympics they won the gymnastics gold with a couple girls who were 14 according to every source of information every filed about them except for the two passports presented to the IOC, the only proof required. China's own gymnastics database had them at 14. They had participated in youth events at ages that would make them 14.

Actually her breaststroke was her strong suit last year at the world championships as well:
In the women's 200 m individual medley, fifteen-year-old Chinese Ye Shiwen won the gold in a time of 2:08.90 to give host nation China its first gold in the swimming competition. At the 150 mark, Ye was in fifth place but covered the last 50 metres in 29.42 to surge ahead of American Ariana Kukors and Australian Alicia Coutts for the win.

Also, 58,68 is still almost 6 seconds slower then the world record for women so it is easily conceivable that she was saving herself for the last 50 (for 200m) and 100 (for 400m).

And for some more facts, she was 5 seconds faster then her previous best for a 14 year old that is now 16. Pretty reasonable that a girl that young is making huge progress. There have been swimmers making bigger steps in progress. Heck, even the 2008 winner Stephanie Rice had a bigger gap between her previous and the time she swam in Beijing. And she was even older already.


There is no evidence at all that she used doping except for the fact that she looked so fast on the part of the medley she is best at, compared to the others that suck at the breast stroke. If it was doping, wouldn't she be far better at all of 4 different strokes?


And how about those gold medals that China lost to doping? Please give some examples. The only time they lost a medal as far as I can remember was because of the 2 14-year olds in Sydney. And at least they were still the best but too young. Not cheating through doping. China is not eastern Germany that won 13 out of 14 gold medals at World championships in the 70's.

China's list of known doping cases is actually not that big at all for a nation that size. Look at baseball or cycling or anything with weights or bodybuilding. All western sports and all loaded with doping cases. But what about China? They didn't even care about the olympics before Beijing and I am pretty sure doping won't help you play table tennis better. Maybe beta blockers but those are caught pretty easily.


The daily mail are a bunch of arrogant morons that put the London games to shame. The ladies cycling road race champion has won world championships in road, cyclocross and track. She won 6 of the 9 stages of the last ladies giro (there is no ladies tour). She wins pretty much everytime she enters anything. But she is called a bitch by the daily mail because the title obviously was meant for the UK.
And lets not forget that she is pretty much the most tame, boring, always super polite girl that you have ever seen. If she is a bitch then all women are bitches.

Every day they seem to be embarrasing the UK yet when a moronic 17 year old sends out 1 tweet, they get locked up.

[Masqerader]

athletes get paid by the medals they bring home.... with all the scandals, cheating what say you that has happened in the olympics... money is more important then the competition

[ashblond]

It isn't about winning at all. The question people brought up was how her splits were better than the best male equivalent and were drastic improvements over her historical speeds on the freestyle segment. I doubt she was doping, but as the critics have said, there is a historical precedent for drug use when there is a sudden spike in a swimmer's speed. Its one thing to be an athletic freak with a body that is essentially perfect like Phelps and for a swimmer to suddenly swim faster than she ever has and that almost anyone ever has. The conditions that they train in are irrelevant to the conversation. Everyone knows that sports in China and sports in the West are completely, completely different. Here it is largely a past time, a hobby, something you do for fun. Over there it is forcefully ingrained in you depending on your attributes. Its just how it is and how it always will be. Going through years of alleged abuse, in the eyes of our societies, is 100% irrelevant to her suddenly destroying the world record and obliterating her personal best in a completely incredible freestyle section.

And please, China has a long history of cheating in Olympic and international events, not that most countries don't. They had a swimmer already test positive this year and get kicked out by their own doping testers. Last Olympics they won the gymnastics gold with a couple girls who were 14 according to every source of information every filed about them except for the two passports presented to the IOC, the only proof required. China's own gymnastics database had them at 14. They had participated in youth events at ages that would make them 14.

An opnion is an opinion. The fact is that she passed the drug test. So it is just an invalid assumption without any proof.

regarding the training system of china vs west, it is ridiculous to say that it is just a hobby and pastime for western athletes, and they join the olympic games just for fun. All the athletes in olympic games are the top/best of the worlds, and most of them are professional sportsman, and i am sure most of them train hard for olympics.

It is ok if you just join the game for fun, but then there is no reason to whine and insult other players if they win over you because they train harder.

China has been a strong competitor since they joined olympics in 1984 and has been leading in 2008 and 2012. But they have only been in the game for less than 30 years, much shorter than any western nation's olympic history. i don't know how this "China has a long history of cheating in Olympic" come from.

When china loses --- they suck
When china wins --- they take drugs

The whole fuss only shows the west is not ready to see China emerges and dominates so fast.

[fleeminggibs]

hello
Speaking of sportsmanship, though, the US coach who sparked the row has copped a fair bit of criticism for being "un-sportsmanlike". I'd actually turn that charge around on China in general, not necessarily as a flaw, but just to say that they approach the Olympics with the wrong attitude. It's not about winning, or being the best - sure, those are the goals of every Olympian, but it's about a good-natured sports meet.

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:34 AM ----------

If you get them to ALL the competitors then it sort-of balances out, but then they cancel each other out so you might as well ban them anyway. If it makes ALL the swimmers 1 second faster it just makes the race 1 second shorter.

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:35 AM ----------

Second, I felt that this article kind of dragged Ye-Shiwen in the mud and diminished her accomplishment by implying drug use and worse, the last couple of paragraphs were kind of a slap in the face when it basically intimated they 'hoped' the record would stand.

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:39 AM ----------

Actually her breaststroke was her strong suit last year at the world championships as well:
In the women's 200 m individual medley, fifteen-year-old Chinese Ye Shiwen won the gold in a time of 2:08.90 to give host nation China its first gold in the swimming competition. At the 150 mark, Ye was in fifth place but covered the last 50 metres in 29.42 to surge ahead of American Ariana Kukors and Australian Alicia Coutts for the win.

Also, 58,68 is still almost 6 seconds slower then the world record for women so it is easily conceivable that she was saving herself for the last 50 (for 200m) and 100 (for 400m).

[Abominator]

What everyone has to keep in mind is the fact that science is advancing at a rapid rate. There are new drugs that are released every day and new masking agents that will hide old drugs. It's hard to test for a drug when a) you don't even know what you're looking for and b) you don't have the technology or information to look for it. In all likely hood many Olympic champions have simply never been caught or used drugs earlier in their careers to get where they were whilst they weren't in the spotlight. Why do you think they take blood/urine samples of athletes and keep them for years? So 8 years down the line when word finally gets out about some performance enhancing drug that came out 8 years back they can test for it and strip the cheaters of their medals. Something similar happened with a Chinese weightlifter from 2008, broke a world record and he got pinged for performance enhancing drugs a little while back. Sometimes it's better to be naive or ignorant then it is to face the truth.

[Chasey]

I can understand why a coach would jump to these conclusions, being in a sport for most of your adult life, you don't normally see 16 y/o females (reguardless of their country or culture) pull better times that one of the best MALE swimmers in the world. He spoke from his heart and well, in the dull sports candy coated interview world this is a breath of fresh air. Was he wrong? time will tell but it looks as if this girl is just that good. Could a 16 y/o really be this fast? We shall see, I think one really telling thing is that the other swimmers on the team haven't been going this fast so either she is an experiement or her talent is just that superior.


Please get off the "western white male vs lil asian female" banter. That stuff gets old, really fast.
FYI, doping is and will always be far ahead of the test to catch it.

[Venant]

They should hold a parallel Olympics for drug users. Competitors can take as many steroids as they want. I'd pay to watch that.

That would truly be a magnificent freak show. Imagine all the weightlifters would reach their limit when they finally pulled their arms off trying to lift 2000lbs, or the swimmers would swim so fast they broke their necks crashing into the wall because they couldn't stop their velocity, or the boxers literally caving in skulls with their blows. Eventually we could have the mutant Olympics with all genetically engineered humans designed for specific competitions.

[Dragonix80]

I'll never understand why people would resort to cheating in Olympic (if they do, that is). Olympic is suppose to be special event where the best of the bestest compete for the number one in the whole world. It should be a honest game. People who resort to drug, doping, and cheating should be punch in the face.

Oh yeah, what about that Badminton incidient? "The players from China, South Korea and Indonesia were accused of playing to lose so they could face easier opponents in future matches, drawing boos from spectators and warnings from match officials Tuesday night." Those women should be ashamed of themselves. Olympic have no place for people like those.