Skill/Build Model flaw

[Dizzarai]

I know there have been a lot of complaints about D3. We all know them - the lack of end game, no pvp, intolerable act 1 grinding etcetc. Personally I think the biggest problem in the game is the the new stats/build model. Some might think that I'm critical of it because it's turned out there's one or two strong builds that people have found that are most effective and everyone is pigeon holed there. I don't know about any of you, but I certainly saw this coming. There was no way that there was going to be true balance across the board. People were always going to find certain combinations that were dominant and the high tuning of post-act 2 inferno was going to force people to use these one or two builds. This is/was unavoidable and, just like wow, people were going to figure out these builds.

No, the problem with this model of simply choosing 6 abilities as apposed to the point allocation system we had in D2 is that the only way really to improve the strength of your character is through gear. You can't keep leveling, put additional points into something and boost yourself. Therefor the only way to get past a wall is by getting better gear and then the only way to do that is this painful act 1 grind where we can just hope that something drops that will sell on the AH so you can buy what you really need.

Additionally, because these builds are so specific the revolve around very specific stats on gear. So it's not just about getting more dex/str/int where the selection of gear would be broad and easier to find. No, it's about finding gear with crit chance or life on hit to make the build work.

In short this build model is focused around gear, rather than the reverse where you developed your build primarily and then when good gear dropped you got to bolster the central aspect of your toon. Diablo games have always been a gear grind, but in the past it was to bolster your character rather than the gear being the sole/primary focus.

I wish I had a good solution to suggest...

[Bugg]

I disagree.

I think the skill model is brilliant.

[Grogo]

I disagree.

I think the skill model is brilliant.

Nah, you probably do not, considering you couldn't explain why

[Milkyz]

"Simply choosing 6 abilities" could also be expanded into "choosing 6 abilities that may not be the same as the set I use to farm Act I mindlessly in order to overcome certain monster templates/combinations found in later Acts". If you choose to ignore ability swaping per act or, progression speaking, even per map session, you really have to rely entirely on overgearing content.

[SurrealNight]

The skill diversity can be fixed with balance patches with hopefully buffs to the underused skills and not nerfs to what is working... Still doesn't change the fact you are locked into one build for an entire farming session/Act thanks to the stupid NV mechanic. That is a much larger issue with skill system IMO.

I would have also liked to see the levels go up to 99 still with anything > 60 giving you points to spend on power buffs to your fave powers. The fact that the only way to personally grow your character is by "finding" new gear, and by finding gear I mean buying it off the AH. The lack of multiple advancement paths is a huge downfall compared to D2 (getting to 99 was no casual feat).

[BowieFunes]

Tried to find my Wizard build in one of those pages with guides, couldn't. I guess there is customization after all.

[Firecrest]

The skill diversity can be fixed with balance patches with hopefully buffs to the underused skills and not nerfs to what is working... Still doesn't change the fact you are locked into one build for an entire farming session/Act thanks to the stupid NV mechanic. That is a much larger issue with skill system IMO.

I would have also liked to see the levels go up to 99 still with anything > 60 giving you points to spend on power buffs to your fave powers. The fact that the only way to personally grow your character is by "finding" new gear, and by finding gear I mean buying it off the AH. The lack of multiple advancement paths is a huge downfall compared to D2 (getting to 99 was no casual feat).

People keep saying this, but they seem to have completely forgotten that the only real difference between a level 92 char (easy to get to) and a level 99 char (hard to get to) was 7 measly points. The REAL difference between a strong and weak character was still gear. Just as it is now.

They also seem to forget that you were locked into your skill choices FOREVER. You complain that you have to stick with the same skills during a farming run. Boo-hoo. D2 let you change your skills... Oh yeah. Never. Like five years after launch, they added the ability to change skills through a ridiculously lengthy/expensive process that, I can guarantee you, no one did mid-run just to have a different skillset to kill a boss. Additionally, let's be honest. If you have to change your skills in order to kill a D3 boss, you don't belong farming that Act. There's just no need to be putzing around with your skills mid-run.

OP complains about "simply choosing 6 abilities", but I for one am glad to be able to load my bars up with six abilities that I will use constantly (not to mention the other half dozen or so useful abilities that are "on deck"). There were no D2 builds that used more than 4-5 abilities and most really only used 1-2.

D3 has way more build diversity than D2 did. There will always be the "best" specs, but D3 offers a truly amazing amount of mobility within that. I've yet to read a single spec guide that, at some point, doesn't say something to the effect of, "And you can fill those last skill slots with the abilities you like best." That's an amazing accomplishment on Blizzard's part.

In D2, you put a couple points here and there and then loaded everything else you got into one skill. How can you possibly argue that's a better system than the balance and customization that D3 allows? Don’t get me wrong, D3 has plenty of failings, but the skill system is not one of them.

[SurrealNight]

People keep saying this, but they seem to have completely forgotten that the only real difference between a level 92 char (easy to get to) and a level 99 char (hard to get to) was 7 measly points. The REAL difference between a strong and weak character was still gear. Just as it is now.

It doesn't have to result in a significant increase in power the main point is it gives you something else to do and delays the point where the only thought in your head is just farming gear. I bet a lot of players would level to 99 just for the sake of maxing out their char and most likely getting the cheevo for it. Even if you don't get much out of it hearing the level ding is almost Pavlovian to most gamers now.

They also seem to forget that you were locked into your skill choices FOREVER. You complain that you have to stick with the same skills during a farming run. Boo-hoo. D2 let you change your skills... Oh yeah. Never.

I never defended that aspect of D2 hence separate paragraphs between skills and levels. I like the fact they let you swap skills/runes/passive about and try out different builds but then they turn back around and put in mechanics that limit that. You mention swapping skills for bosses but they are the easiest part of the game and you could easily plan your build for if needed... the hard part is the random packs with crazy affix combinations in the later acts that you have NO WAY to predict, so why create such a dynamic skill system when all you use it for is to lock 6 skills in for basically your entire farming career? You telling me you change up your skills each time you restart an act to farm? Again you are locked into 6 skills through both mechanics and farming patterns.

Clear example as a DH. I prefer Smoke Screen as my main Disc spender but Shadow Power+Gloom is by far the best way to deal with reflect damage packs. So what is so wrong with me running with SS most a clear and swapping to Shadow Power if I hit a rough reflect dmg pack? Sure there are similar examples from other classes people could list. Either way why not let me play that way? Not like it negatively affects anyone else's game play.

[Fencers]

I actually quite like the skill system. Bringing what is essentially Warcraft's glyph system in the context of an ARPG is not too shabby. It can serve the dual function of adding skill diversification and build focus. The latter is petty hard to pull off in a ARPG typically without breaking the flavor of a given class. Otherwise we get into the realm from design POV to eliminate specificity of player characters. Something we could see in games such as Path of Exile or Torchlight 1 in the negative.

NV is the real problem. Simply put; NV is quintessentially bad game design as it counters other systems of play directly. What's more it invalidates the other systems [primary & secondary] as it is the main point of the game to farm.

Very, very bad design.

[chadwix]

OP complains about "simply choosing 6 abilities", but I for one am glad to be able to load my bars up with six abilities that I will use constantly (not to mention the other half dozen or so useful abilities that are "on deck"). There were no D2 builds that used more than 4-5 abilities and most really only used 1-2.

I disagree with your entire post. My necro was using 4 curses plus other skills.

My kicker asn (tele kick, aoe kick, single target kick)? You didnt play the game enough to understand the build diversity in d2

[Firecrest]

It doesn't have to result in a significant increase in power the main point is it gives you something else to do and delays the point where the only thought in your head is just farming gear. I bet a lot of players would level to 99 just for the sake of maxing out their char and most likely getting the cheevo for it. Even if you don't get much out of it hearing the level ding is almost Pavlovian to most gamers now.

If seven mindless button clicks is what makes a good game for you, then I'm sure there's a button clicking app out there that you'll love. For me though, nothing about those seven clicks was rewarding. They were a given. By the time you got there, they assuredly went into your main skill and your main attribute. And once they were there, you couldn't even feel a difference in power.

Your argument is that it was these clicks and not better gear that made your character feel like it was growing stronger in D2 and that D3 has taken these clicks away. The reality is that those clicks were just clicks and it was the gear you wore that made your character powerful - just like D3.

I never defended that aspect of D2 hence separate paragraphs between skills and levels. I like the fact they let you swap skills/runes/passive about and try out different builds but then they turn back around and put in mechanics that limit that. You mention swapping skills for bosses but they are the easiest part of the game and you could easily plan your build for if needed... the hard part is the random packs with crazy affix combinations in the later acts that you have NO WAY to predict, so why create such a dynamic skill system when all you use it for is to lock 6 skills in for basically your entire farming career? You telling me you change up your skills each time you restart an act to farm? Again you are locked into 6 skills through both mechanics and farming patterns.

I do not change my skills before every run, nor would I want to. That does not even remotely come close to meaning that I am "locked into 6 skills through both mechanics and farming patterns". I am able to pick different skills based on what I'm farming and occasionally when I just want to shake things up. "Act I MF" is a very different skillbar than "Act III no-MF". Fortunately, D3 allows me to change my bars based on Act and when I feel like doing something different. That, for me, is the perfect level of customization. I don't WANT to be changing my bars every 30 seconds and would be very upset if Blizzard had written the game in a way that forced me to constantly switch specs to meet certain packs.

My point is that you guys bemoan D3 and praise D2 when D2 did all of that stuff worse. If you got sick of playing your Blizzard Sorc and wanted to try Fire, that was just too F'ing bad. Your options were either reroll or reroll.

Clear example as a DH. I prefer Smoke Screen as my main Disc spender but Shadow Power+Gloom is by far the best way to deal with reflect damage packs. So what is so wrong with me running with SS most a clear and swapping to Shadow Power if I hit a rough reflect dmg pack? Sure there are similar examples from other classes people could list. Either way why not let me play that way? Not like it negatively affects anyone else's game play.

I'm tempted to say that if you feel compelled to spec change for any reason in the middle of farming an act, you likely don't belong there. This is the case with my Monk for sure. I admit it may be different for ranged classes – I see them bitching about affixes all the time when my Monk doesn’t give two shits what abilities a pack has. So your assertion here may be correct. Beats me.

I disagree with your entire post. My necro was using 4 curses plus other skills.

My kicker asn (tele kick, aoe kick, single target kick)? You didnt play the game enough to understand the build diversity in d2

You disagree with me saying most D2 builds used five or less skills and "prove" your point by listing a 4 skill and 3 skill build? That's... interesting.

[chadwix]

You disagree with me saying most D2 builds used five or less skills and "prove" your point by listing a 4 skill and 3 skill build? That's... interesting.

You have officially lost cred. My necro used a golem, skels, ce, poison nova, bone spear and a few revives (dont forget tele ). On top of the skills i used from the curse tree. Im sure i missed a few skills i used but you get the picture i was using around 8-12 on each char.

Id assume you would know that you dont play a necro using all curses since they dont deal damage...

Should i list the skills i used my with lightdancer asn?

[jaakkeli]

You have officially lost cred. My necro used a golem, skels, ce, poison nova, bone spear and a few revives (dont forget tele ). On top of the skills i used from the curse tree. Im sure i missed a few skills i used but you get the picture i was using around 8-12 on each char.

The necro was pretty much the only class in D2 with that variety of tools though as the curses could be really handy with even a 1 point investment. I mainly played sorceresses of various specs and most of them came down to having

1) Main attack spell
2) Backup attack spell from another element
3) Teleport
4) Ice armor spell that you'd just push every few minutes to keep up
5) Mana shield if the build allows it and you'd just push this every few minutes to keep it up
6) Thunderstorm if the build allows it and you'd just push this every few minutes to keep it up
7) Telekinesis (rarely useful but you could use it for eg stunning a double immune while the merc killed it)

There was no real way to invest in more skills than that and still be effective and most sorc builds would not afford all of that stuff as sorcs had to pump up purely passive skills to be effective. The synergy patch made it even worse - you'd end up with builds like meteorb that had 3 usable attack spells (fireball, meteor, orb) but then you could not afford Thunderstorm. 7 usable skills was the absolute max, you'd usually not have that and in the end most of it was passive or extremely rarely used gimmick stuff like Telekinesis so sorc playing was all spamming main attack, teleporting around and then using the backup attack in case of immunes - and for some runs you could just skip the backup attack and just spam the main attack and teleport around.

Oh yeah and Glacial Spike spam could be permafreezing niceness in groups for a tough pack but in practice no one ever used that...

[Glurp]

I wouldn't exactly call it bad design. It is almost impossible to have a game where you can tune your build exactly to your liking and do as well as everyone else. WoW has always had cookie cutter builds and the new talent trees in MoP are designed to remove cookie cutter builds, but that can never happen. There will always be a specific build that is the best for each specific encounter/situation and it is the same with Diablo.

The only way I could see a possibility to remove cookie cutter builds is to remove Elective Mode and make each build chose 1 of each type of ability. This would however need the game to be balanced completely differently and there is the possibility that every build would feel the same because you're just substituing different types of offencive/defencive/summoning/whatever abilties with other ones and there is still a chance that specific abilities may remain unused.