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  1. #21
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Mazi, I am sorry, but I know you are one of the "top mtr Hpriests" out there. It won't be 100% fair to compare you're output with how the class is doing overall;D

    I do hope they listen to Hpriests this xpack, because it surely seem most are unhappy with Solace & Chakra, the shortage of mana regen/free procc spells and also the lack of "utility" spells (dmg reduction etc, I know we have output CD's but still we don't compete with that). It doesn't seem they will, so I am, for the first time in all those years, thinking seriously of re-rolling to something more flowish-stylish with better use of mechanics for raids. And that is coming from a very, very dedicated Holy Priest who loves her class oh so much...
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2012-08-06 at 08:13 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Mazi, I am sorry, but I know you are one of the "top mtr Hpriests" out there. It won't be 100% fair to compare you're output with how the class is doing overall;D
    So people can compare their own output to top players of <insert class here> and that's totally okay?

    Not saying you're guilty of this, but it's something I see coming from (balance/resto) Druids all the time and it makes my head freaking hurt. "Druids are completely terrible and in an unplayable position, look at how bad I'm doing to this top priest log" "Uhh, okay, here's a log where druids are fine" "Yeah but that's a top log for top players what about the rest of us?!" o.O
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  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    @ Kelesti, ofc not... That's exactly what I say you can not do, isn't it...? Nope. It's impossible to draw conclusions from separate logs, but I have seen quite a bunch of logs, and it's a fact Hpriests CD's are "visible" and I can't really see we are great for raiding atm. And the above, with Chakra & Solace (I don't like Solace mostly cause while we regen we need to stop healing and let other healers do our job/watch over healthpools), I feel our fun is gone aswell.

  4. #24
    Looking at most logs i honestly think we don't look that bad and should be comparable to the rest once their major bugs are fixed (shamans probably need more work). But like said with mechanics as Solace and Rapture they didn't make it easy for themselves to balance us. We all know how they had to bump our regen at the start of cata, and now they have to worry about the active regen part aswell... In terms of testing i'm optimistic, it looks they are settled on tier 3 regen talents and are probably waiting for more data to bump spirit regen if needed or nerf other classes regen.

    About disc vs holy, the thing i worry about is how the step from 5mans to raiding will feel this time around. Heroic 5mans are supposedly a lot easier now, so the real issues probably surface when people start to enter raids. Now holy will play pretty much the same i think, but disc with the addition of spirit shell and baseline atonement looks pretty complex to me. So i'm wondering either these new toys for disc will be a good bonus in the first tier for doing it right, or the balance is too tight and requires too much management for most of the priests out there and they will feel weaker.

  5. #25
    Well, this was a sad thread. Started out ok but only 6-7 posts on topic in here... Rest are "zomg look at the meters vs everyone else etc - priests sucks(or they don't)". I thought the idea with this thread was "So you want to play a priest in MoP - here's your a-b-c guide on what is changing". Performance compared to other classes is pretty irrelevant.

    And Felade:
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Sounds like more reasons to roll Monk to me!
    When you write stuff like this combined with your sarcasm about "Nobody surprised except Blizz" it just looks like you don't like Holy. Not just in it's current MoP-state, but in general. That's hardly a positive/constructive attitude to bring to this thread.

    I play Holypriest because I like the spec. I've always prefered the healing-tree vs disc-shielding, and I'm really looking forward to see what MoP will mean to my priest. I also have a shaman - the big difference in Cata was for me that the shaman just seemed easier to play. It is easier to get higher hps while never running out of mana, where the priest actually had to be managed a bit more - on the positive side I feel like I have more important cooldowns to manage on the priest, which makes in more interesting to play. Am I super-pro masterhealer of the world? No, far from it. I have raided hardcore in Vanilla, TBC and start of Wotlk, but the more casual I've become, the more I've focused on what spec I enjoyed playing instead of going for the Fotm-spec/class.

    Anyway - I need to read up on some more MoP-info for the classes I have. This post sparkled my interest and gave a basic idea of what I need to look out for. Imo OP could easily have added more info(list of all glyphs/talents/spells etc) if this was supposed to be the #1 go-to guide for "So you forgot you had a priest and want to learn what it will look like in MoP? Look no further!".

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I feel our fun is gone aswell.
    I agree. I don't like a lot of holy mechanics. Spells like Chakra, Spirit of Redemption, Lightwell (to be fair, this is fixed with a glyph) or Leap of faith.

    I'm honestly not fussy on Cascade or Divine Star, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcVdiA View Post
    Looking at most logs i honestly think we don't look that bad and should be comparable to the rest once their major bugs are fixed (shamans probably need more work).
    Agree - but Disc is hurting pretty badly too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcVdiA View Post
    But like said with mechanics as Solace and Rapture they didn't make it easy for themselves to balance us.
    Solace is IMPOSSIBLE to balance. They admitted Judgment of Insight was broken, and Solace is basically exactly that.

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Thanks Kel! Though I notice a lack of glyph changes. Most especially That Glyph That Shall Not Be Named.

    :P

    btw, it's Lightspring

  8. #28
    I don't know....I was looking at the possibilities, and was wondering if Solace should be able to heal, as opposed to just being a damage/regen spell. After all, Solace isn't a word I'd use for LAZERING THE ENEMY. Holy seems to be the Swiss Army Knife of heals, but without the throughput of other healers. Perhaps a generic boost to the healing capacity whilst keeping the same mana costs, or a passive Spell Cost Reduction (named "Attuned to the Light" for 5% off all direct healing spells?) with the same numbers.

    Disc has always had...interesting problems. I wonder if a Mastery change to allow for x% of your Shield to heal when the absorb expires (stackable, of course, similar to Blood Shield for DKs). Perhaps tweak Weakened Soul to prevent you from casting PW: Shield for 10 seconds, combining with SoS. Atonement is probably gonna be an essential talent, but so long as DA can proc off the crit-heals, that should be less of an issue. AA not returning mana is BS, though. Give it a 45s CD and return less, but still SOME mana.

    Shadow is an unholy mess, fromt he looks of things - low Single-target sustained, reduced multi-dotting capability, and reduced utility. I wonder if Orbs should trigger off DoT crits and Mind Blast could work for that. The Mastery seems interesting, though. Probably have the spells last 20 (SW: P), 15 (VT) and 10 (DP) seconds.

    Possibly have a Major Glyph that has a chance to increase your combat Regen by 100% for 10 seconds on Spellcast (1 min. ICD).

  9. #29
    I've been progression raiding since vanilla - you'll never be equal - but it sure is fine to keep up. Did you look at ALL of the logs? Or just that fight and those attempts? I'm talking about OVERALL not just one fight or one attempt.
    Its more of an aggregate, and not just your logs, those were just ones I found. I can't see other bosses on those logs for some reason, WOL won't let me. Yes, as I said, perhaps there's something else going on - but I've had logs like that on live and I know what that feels like - me working my butt off just to keep up. I also know what that feels like on my Druid - it feels like an average day at the office. I'll see a Holy Priest on live start catching up to me on my Druid and I'll think "ok, better stop slacking!"

    Maybe another way to put it - on my Druid I feel properly rewarded for my level of effort. On my Holy Priest, I feel like I do a whole lot of work (and spend a whole lot of mana) and don't get anything for it. And that is what the logs generally look like.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that since you are a HM raider and have enough confidence in your abilities that you are writing guides for the spec that you are pretty good at playing Holy Priest, and you are getting "handled" (yes, that is debatable, and things could be broken - of course, in that sense though Druids have been broken all of Cata and Paladins were broken in DS) by every Paladin, Monk, and Druid that comes along - that's not balanced.

    The other side of it is I've been playing Priest for a long time (since BC), our MT is going to law school in the fall, and we already have one Priest on our 10 man team. I'm pretty much done with healing Priests (especially if things stay the way they are right now) and I'm kind of take it or leave it about Shadow, so this seems like a good opportunity to try something new.

    When you write stuff like this combined with your sarcasm about "Nobody surprised except Blizz" it just looks like you don't like Holy. Not just in it's current MoP-state, but in general. That's hardly a positive/constructive attitude to bring to this thread.
    Yes, I've despised the playstyle since 4.0. I don't like Chakra, I don't like Lightwell, I don't like Spirit of Redemption, I thought Holy Concentration was a big mistake, and I don't like spamming POH (as opposed to how it was used in Wrath - sparingly for big bursts). I stuck with the class in Cata mostly because I liked Shadow, and I liked being able to swap to healing if needed. However, things did not really get better in Cata, and I enjoyed healing on my Druid much more than on my Priest (but I hated Balance and Feral DPS). It looks like that's not going to change. I really enjoyed the spec in Wrath and they pulled the rug out from under me in 4.0 (mostly thanks to Chakra). Those are pretty good reasons to reroll, don't you think? I'm sorry if the sarcasm rankles, but I'm going to call it as I see it. I've got some positives on that list, too.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-08-06 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Yes, I've despised the playstyle since 4.0. I don't like Chakra, I don't like Lightwell, I don't like Spirit of Redemption, I thought Holy Concentration was a big mistake, and I don't like spamming POH (as opposed to how it was used in Wrath - sparingly for big bursts). I stuck with the class in Cata mostly because I liked Shadow, and I liked being able to swap to healing if needed. However, things did not really get better in Cata, and I enjoyed healing on my Druid much more than on my Priest. It looks like that's not going to change. Those are pretty good reasons to reroll, don't you think? I'm sorry if the sarcasm rankles, but I'm going to call it as I see it. I've got some positives on that list, too.
    Obviously you are entitled to your own opinion, but when I click on a thread regarding "State of Priest in MoP" it's rather disheartening to be met with "pff, just reroll instead of wasting time on this shit".
    I completely agree with the feeling that I need to work harder with my priest in order to get the same results as my shaman, but that is actually why I enjoy the priest. My shaman is fine for when I wanna watch TV or something, but when I want a bit more than Chainheal+totems, I'll log my priest and get some proper action.
    Imo Chakra is fine - it's a nice way to make the priest versatile and able to switch roles during a fight - the change is coming to lightwell so we don't have to shout at the raid "Click Click!", and tbh I can't see what's wrong with SoR - unless you have some idea that it is taking a valuable space that could be used for something better (if that's the case, then feel free to post some ideas on what should be there instead so we can have a constructive discussion about it - however maybe not in this thread, since it's meant to focus on what we are getting - not what we could/should be getting instead).

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Yes, I've despised the playstyle since 4.0. I don't like Chakra, I don't like Lightwell, I don't like Spirit of Redemption, I thought Holy Concentration was a big mistake, and I don't like spamming POH (as opposed to how it was used in Wrath - sparingly for big bursts). I stuck with the class in Cata mostly because I liked Shadow, and I liked being able to swap to healing if needed. However, things did not really get better in Cata, and I enjoyed healing on my Druid much more than on my Priest (but I hated Balance and Feral DPS). It looks like that's not going to change. I really enjoyed the spec in Wrath and they pulled the rug out from under me in 4.0 (mostly thanks to Chakra). Those are pretty good reasons to reroll, don't you think? I'm sorry if the sarcasm rankles, but I'm going to call it as I see it. I've got some positives on that list, too.
    That's fine. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. That doesn't make it okay for you to tell others to just reroll because it's not your cup of tea. Seriously, that was the entire point. It's especially bad that your post is one of the top 5 posts in the thread and people are likely to read it.

    If you have played beta at all (which it really sounds like you haven't) we don't just spam PoH either. But again, it sounds like no matter what we say you're going to stick by your words to reroll, hopefully no one takes your advice because it's bogus.

  12. #32
    I completely agree with the feeling that I need to work harder with my priest in order to get the same results as my shaman, but that is actually why I enjoy the priest. My shaman is fine for when I wanna watch TV or something, but when I want a bit more than Chainheal+totems, I'll log my priest and get some proper action.
    More power to you, then, sir. I tried it for two years. It isn't fun for me, and that doesn't look like it is going to change. If you don't mind having weak mana, middling throughput and an awkward toolkit, then carry on.

    Imo Chakra is fine - it's a nice way to make the priest versatile and able to switch roles during a fight
    As has been discussed at length in other threads, Chakra is a trap. It *looks* like it rewards Priests for being versatile, but what it really amounts to in most cases is a 15% nerf to your single target healing. A strong Renew means Serenity will be a bit more viable, especially for 10 mans, but that is just making Chakra less bad, not that Chakra was ever a good idea in the first place. At the very best, for 10s it might mean you sit in Serenity/Inner Will most of the time, using Renew and ST heals, and then when the big burst comes out, you pop Inner Fire, Chakra: Sanctuary, and spam POH. You better hope that big burst lasts for more than 30 seconds too, because if it only lasts 20 seconds you'll be stuck in the wrong Chakra for 10 seconds, and if the burst comes back in less than 40 seconds, you'll be stuck in the wrong Chakra AGAIN.

    That's fine. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. That doesn't make it okay for you to tell others to just reroll because it's not your cup of tea. Seriously, that was the entire point. It's especially bad that your post is one of the top 5 posts in the thread and people are likely to read it.
    That's fair. It was really meant only for me, not as advice for everyone. Sorry it came across that way.

    If you have played beta at all (which it really sounds like you haven't) we don't just spam PoH either.
    No I am not in beta, but we did spam POH all through Cata which is what I was talking about. I've made several comments, including that post, that talk about how I like having a strong Renew again and that it makes Chakra: Serenity much more attractive than it is on live.

    Well, this was a sad thread. Started out ok but only 6-7 posts on topic in here... Rest are "zomg look at the meters vs everyone else etc - priests sucks(or they don't)". I thought the idea with this thread was "So you want to play a priest in MoP - here's your a-b-c guide on what is changing". Performance compared to other classes is pretty irrelevant.
    I thought Kelesti did a very nice job of outlining the changes to the class, so I gave my outline of where I see the state of the priest class.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-08-06 at 03:42 PM.

  13. #33
    I personally don't feel that spamming solace 259 times in the span of your first log is fun but whatever floats your boat!
    Last edited by Benea; 2012-08-06 at 03:32 PM. Reason: 259 not 260!

  14. #34
    I do think Holy is fun to play on beta. I'm fine with the toolkit which allows you a variety of gameplay and while I didn't see a lot of boss fights, those I have seen allowed to use the entire toolkit, which is fun for me. Still, I can't say I'm comfortable with DH and LW (lightspring) doing so much healing, and I don't like SoR nor Chakra.

    That being said, holy is IMO (I won't pretend I'm pro at holy healing, I'm not) lower than other specs. The only way to bypass this is to burn mana on aoe damage and to avoid single target healing (letting others do it basically) and spamming solace when you have single target damage going on. Also, I find that on single target healing, I spend a lot of mana with small results. If they play well, there is absolutely no way to keep up with HPal or Monks, hps-wise. But beta being beta, I think they'll probably get nerfed.

    I do know meters don't matter much in healing and guilds will bring priest even if things stay like they are now. However, I can see problems for 10-man progression guilds. As I said, I didn't see most of the fights, but I can't see a holy priest having time to spam solace as much as he needs to while 2-healing those first heroic kills. Those guilds will choose another class. Fortunatly, we bring stam buff ^^

  15. #35
    I do know meters don't matter much in healing and guilds will bring priest even if things stay like they are now.
    Meters matter for healers. They don't matter as much as they do for DPS, and they matter in different ways, but they do matter.

    What I would like to see is everyone around the same level of throughput, with different classes on top from a fight to fight basis. Then it feels more like "if I try really hard and do well, I get something out of it". Currently on live, what it feels like is "it doesn't matter if I try hard or not, because even if I do try hard I won't beat the Druid and the Paladin, and I will run out of mana doing it, so I might as well just let them do their thing and save my mana for the big burst phases where they actually need my help". From what I've seen on beta logs in the past months, (and things like Sinn's comment) that's not changing.

  16. #36
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Meters matter for healers. They don't matter as much as they do for DPS, and they matter in different ways, but they do matter.

    What I would like to see is everyone around the same level of throughput, with different classes on top from a fight to fight basis. Then it feels more like "if I try really hard and do well, I get something out of it". Currently on live, what it feels like is "it doesn't matter if I try hard or not, because even if I do try hard I won't beat the Druid and the Paladin, and I will run out of mana doing it, so I might as well just let them do their thing and save my mana for the big burst phases where they actually need my help". From what I've seen on beta logs in the past months, (and things like Sinn's comment) that's not changing.
    I mean this in the nicest way possible, but are you sure you're not just being outplayed? I outheal Druids & Paladins on live often and Beta on some fights. I really don't understand your argument. Just because you can't play the class to it's full potential doesn't mean the class is weak.
    Last edited by Mazi; 2012-08-06 at 06:50 PM. Reason: wording

  17. #37
    I'm not used to holy healing as you are, obviously. And I do outheal Paladins sometimes on beta. But only those who play poorly. One could argue that I play poorly too, which wouldn't be completely untrue (for exemple, it's seems it's very important to use CoH on CD, which I don't track enough). But when you see 70% of a paladin's heal ~5-10k above you comes from eternal flame, beacon and mastery, you know something is wrong. Probably the paladin, not the priest. But still, they need to fix numbers or some priest will be sat in 10-man because of their class, which is sad.

    Maybe it's a l2p issue on my side. I need to do more testing to know. I'll try to abuse the renew thing as was suggested by some of you.

    BTW, anyone else has a bug with the ember primal diamond not giving the 2% mana? I tried putting 2 orange gems like the requirement of the lvl 85 version and it doesn't work either.

  18. #38
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
    I'm not used to holy healing as you are, obviously. And I do outheal Paladins sometimes on beta. But only those who play poorly. One could argue that I play poorly too, which wouldn't be completely untrue (for exemple, it's seems it's very important to use CoH on CD, which I don't track enough). But when you see 70% of a paladin's heal ~5-10k above you comes from eternal flame, beacon and mastery, you know something is wrong. Probably the paladin, not the priest. But still, they need to fix numbers or some priest will be sat in 10-man because of their class, which is sad.

    Maybe it's a l2p issue on my side. I need to do more testing to know. I'll try to abuse the renew thing as was suggested by some of you.
    Paladins are bugged with Eternal Flame right now. I meant to say on live often and even sometimes on beta.

    Tracking your CDs is very important. I'm not even playing to my full potential (that last log Weak Auras wasn't working so I was really awful about it since I'm used to it) and I'm still doing alright.

    The fact of the matter is, mana aside, our throughput is there. At least we're not in the shit hole that is Shamans right now.

    And in 10m we were healing Monk Druid HPriest most of the time and we were almost always completely equal on throughput, so I don't see the issue with Holy in 10m.

  19. #39
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think Priests are that bad on beta right now; that said, I did have a slight preference/tendency toward Holy. Shadow spec is much more fun/forgiving now with Devouring Plague having been made a finisher rather than a DoT to watch and so on. I think everyone can be glad they aren't Enhancement Shamans however; morbidly boring with all the hard-hitting of a wet fish.
    The first thing I remember about the world — and I pray that it may be the last — is that I was a stranger in it.” - Malcolm Muggeridge, Apologia pro vita sua (1968)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    The fact of the matter is, mana aside, our throughput is there.
    I do agree with that. Don't know about disc about that, didn't test it yet.

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