[MOP] I predict the death of melee in PvP

[PizzaSHARK]

I like how people assume that Blizzard is done with changing the pvp defense vs pvp power scaling.

I don't think the issues with PvP are due to numbers.

They're due to mechanics.

[Senedra]

still wont stop me from pvping on my warrior in mists :3

[Nurvus]

Darthades, your denial won't get you anywhere.

The behavior you are witnessing in Beta is largely due to the fact that survivability is much higher than it is suppose to be.
Survivability will be lower Live, and that means the time it takes to kill a caster or healer will go down considerably, causing Healers to be less effective, in turn causing Melees to be more dangerous and apply pressure more effectively.

I don't think the issues with PvP are due to numbers.

They're due to mechanics.

Numbers change the way mechanics are used.

[darthades]

I don't think the issues with PvP are due to numbers.

They're due to mechanics.

agreed, defense/power ratio is close to balanced in this patch, healing scaling is still untouched, while those numbers are a huge factor on this argument, the other half is about mechanics favoring ranged a lot more than previous expansions in group PvP.

PS i am not an exclusive melee user, check my post history, is mostly about lock PvP, i AM NOT BIASED against either playstyle and enjoy both equally.

The behavior you are witnessing in Beta is largely due to the fact that survivability is much higher than it is suppose to be.

/Facepalm, these people keep talking about the 90% reduction resilience which was fixed a week ago.

[Rorke]

I don't think the issues with PvP are due to numbers.

They're due to mechanics.

It could be both. It also could be due to the fact that most people have no idea how to use certain mechanics competitively yet. Its similar to fighting games how some characters move up in a tier list not because of buffs, but a general understanding of how a mechanic that was overlooked can be used as a new tool to achieve victory.

Beta is beta. Season 12 will be beta too because everything is still a clusterfuck of both balance issues and ignorance of new mechanics. You didn't really see rogues in season 9 use smoke bomb the way its used today. People used to think smoke bomb was only a defensive mechanic.

[Yvaelle]

Wanna play numbers?

I would love to play numbers with you. You start. Supply some numbers to support your melee-doom theory.

ok in full S12 with 3 stacks of grace up

flash heal numbers? no cds, crit and non crit

greater heal numbers? no cds, crit and non crit

With ONE 2m cd trinket greater heal is 512k crit right? anyone can confirm?

How much for a chaos bolt with 3 cooldowns lined up, sacrifice,trinket and darksoul? factoring resilience/power, 3 second cast that requires acumulating resources

What is this? I think you are trying to outline the numbers that you need to come up with to support your claim? (Although from the half-baked sentence fragments, I'm not even sure what it is your trying to claim here? Please elaborate)

Post without lying your estimated melee/range ratio in both BGs and arenas in BETA, PTR.

There you go, no opinion, of course YOU WONT LIKE THOSE NUMBERS and will deflect like talking about how OP dks and locks are accordint to u and more offtopic gliberish.[COLOR="red"]

I am not the one making the claim that it is fully ranged vs. fully ranged in BGs, you are. The burden of proof does not fall to me to prove each of your statements false, you have to provide math to support your claim first before I can play numbers with you.

[Scotavious]

I would love to play numbers with you. You start. Supply some numbers to support your melee-doom theory.




What is this? I think you are trying to outline the numbers that you need to come up with to support your claim? (Although from the half-baked sentence fragments, I'm not even sure what it is your trying to claim here? Please elaborate)



I am not the one making the claim that it is fully ranged vs. fully ranged in BGs, you are. The burden of proof does not fall to me to prove each of your statements false, you have to provide math to support your claim first before I can play numbers with you.

ok first, your mad, shouting "your wrong, im right" doesnt really do anything for either of you, yall kinda look like 12 year olds who should have the internet privileges revoked by dad.

Second as each class gains more abilities and escape mechanics with each expansion those that can deal damage from a safe distance have started to see the scales tip in their favor. A basic way to illustrate this is: these 2 classes are virtually identical except that one can do damage at close range and one can to damage at 35yards, why, in this scenario, would you take a melee. Its kinda like Guns vs knives

The melee vs range doom and gloom at the beginning of cata(t11) was more a result of the PVE scene, guilds were benching all their melee cause there was no reason to take them, in short you didnt NEED melee. They countered this buy designing fights that had melee favoring mechanics in them, dunno how the situation will be tuned for PVP, i dont work for blizz.

In conclusion, its an issue now, will it be when the xpac hits, tough to say for certain. However im sure that if nobody raises the issue the balance discrepancies will go unattended.

[Beefkow]

Wow.... this thread is really aggressive, lets chill by simply reading my post.

Pvp resil needs a buff, because ill agree people are dropping like crazy (from all points of view, melee and ranged). The only thing blizzard needs to think about is buffing the dmg on some classes and nerf the heals from healing classes (possibly dps classes).

I find some melee to not be able to stay on their target, but i think there doing just as fine such as warriors, (30 sec heroic leap 4th set, a good charge, possibly glyph to enrage) dks (Death's advance and the immunity to magic most of the time), and that is about all of the classes that i have played (have knowledge of).

I can agree with Pizzashark as well, mechanics are probably the reason to dmg nerfs and buffs, if mechanics were fixed and rearranged, and then im sure that the dmg would scale just as right (hopefully pvp power and resil as well).

[PizzaSHARK]

It could be both. It also could be due to the fact that most people have no idea how to use certain mechanics competitively yet. Its similar to fighting games how some characters move up in a tier list not because of buffs, but a general understanding of how a mechanic that was overlooked can be used as a new tool to achieve victory.

Beta is beta. Season 12 will be beta too because everything is still a clusterfuck of both balance issues and ignorance of new mechanics. You didn't really see rogues in season 9 use smoke bomb the way its used today. People used to think smoke bomb was only a defensive mechanic.

I'm talking about more in the sense of core mechanics. Casters were given mobile casting and powerful instant spells because melee were made to be virtually immune to kiting, and had long interrupts on very short cooldowns.

But now they're making (most) melee easier to kite, and they've nerfed interrupts across the board. But we're still seeing these superpowered instants that cost virtually no mana, have very short cooldowns, and produce enormous throughput. Why? If the interrupts and constant streams of charges and sprints and stuns have been dialed back, why do the casters still need their instants to be so powerful? Why do they still need a moving Scorch without penalties for casting it while moving?

See what I mean?

[weedsurge]

beta.

they already know there is tweaking that needs to be done in pvp so all we can do is wait and hope they adjust it, or maybe its fine but the game has changed and we need to adapt to it, we wont know for sure until the actual release is out in a few months. just chill and let it come.

[darthades]

Pvp resil needs a buff, because ill agree people are dropping like crazy (from all points of view, melee and ranged)

a small buff of 10% to resil will put level 90 S12 geared players at cata damage levels.

Some classes have overtunned PvE and PvP damage but no worries, this will get fixed with the exception of mage's burst during shatters as usual.

Now ranged/melee escape/defense mechanics and healing in group PvP, thats the real problem

[Beefkow]

Now ranged/melee mechanics and healing in group PvP, thats the real problem

Like i said, mechanics needs to be fixed, and heals needs to be adjusted to scale correctly, maybe a solution.... 150% crit bonus rather than 200% crit bonus?

[darthades]

Like i said, mechanics needs to be fixed, and heals needs to be adjusted to scale correctly, maybe a solution.... 150% crit bonus rather than 200% crit bonus?

Not enough.

All heals need zero PvP power scaling, maybe that would be a start, healers wont get PvE gear because they will need the resilience.

Damage,healing and resilience need to be at CATA levels before we even start talking mechanics, sadly.

[Beefkow]

Not enough.

All heals need zero PvP power scaling, maybe that would a start, healers wont get PvE gear because they will need the resilience.

Damage,healing and resilience need to be at CATA levels before we even start talking mechanics, sadly.

Then why would healers get pvp power if that was implemented? what other stat are they gonna rely on?

[darthades]

Then why would healers get pvp power if that was implemented? what other stat are they gonna rely on?

PvP power would be a void stat for heals and absorb shields, they still need the resilience so no pve gear.

Whatever it takes to get to cata levels of damage/healing and resilience, there is no other way around, maybe a healing reduction debuff in BGs, arenas, but that is cheese and will ruin world PvP and health based self heals.

[Maerad]

Mhhh ... I have to jump in for darthades a bit

I don't have any specific data, so it's whole subjective on my part. It feels that my healers (every class without monk avaiable, but only played pala, druid and shaman in beta right now) are stronger then before in terms of healing and survivability. But that could be because of the full gear I use now. But still, it's hard to kill me, if there is not a ton of focus dmg.

On the melee part, I can't say I saw less melee in BG's and arenas now (actually, I never really looked for it - I will do now), but it feels, that the melees struggle more right now then in cata. Well, I don't play arena, but my friend does with a passion and even he said something is of. Mostly because he can't dispell the cc's like he was used too.

Well, everyting very subjective and without any hard data. Just a feeling. Guess we just wait till the addon goes online and see blizzard adjusting. PVP will need around 1-2 months until balanced anyway.

[Shoukyaku]

Decently geared rouges would like to have a word with you (Them and Mages need to be beat to death with the nerf bat).

And heeeere we go again with sweet sweet tears of someone whining about rogues being overpowered. First off, rogues suck at the beginning of EVERY expansion. Like suck, suck suck suck suck suck suck. Remember the beginning of Cata? They were the least played class in game and raids didnt even want to bring them they were that bad. Then guess what? Firelands came out and they SCALED. Then they were decent middle of the pack numbers producers. The Dragon Soul came out and *gasp* guess what? They SCALED even more in pve and pvp and starting rocking the meters on both ends of the spectrum. And hey guess what is going to happen when Pandaland drops? THEY ARE GOING TO SUCK AGAIN. Then guess what will happen after that? The next tier they will SCALE again and be decent. I swear if I have to listen to one more emo kid cutting their wrist whining about rogues I will dropkick a donkey. On, and on a sidenote if you werent inhaling gas fumes you would realize the OP was referring to CURRENT BETA atmosphere not Cataclysm. Learn to read.

[Nyaldee]

Actually things were like OP described for a long time already. Even now dominant RBG groups are stacking Boomkins/Affli Locks/Fire mages becouse of insane spread dmg they've, good kiting abilities, great support they're providing. Yeh there's a spot for melee flag carriers, occasional rogue for smoke bomb and healing debuff but core still consists of casters/healers. If we take a good look on MoP talents many ranged are getting new mobility moves/defensive cd's that'll allow them to maintain positioning better. For melee new mobility moves means only more ways to get into enemy crowd and get instawtfpwned. So for RBGs melees are looking incredibly bad in MoP.

I understand that casters need mobility/survivability to stay alive in arena where map has serious range limitations, but in BG that concept completly bones melee classes. So promoting 2 competitive PvP mode Blizz shoot itself in the leg - if casters and melee are balanced for arena setting then inevitably casters becomes kings in RBGs, if balance shifts towards RBG to bring casters and melees on equal footing then casters will be gimped for arena.

Imo Blizzard got scared by Warhammer Online and decided to promote "mass competitive" pvp in form of BGs. WO failed but left us with RBGs - ugly stepchildren of Blizz entertaiment.
BGs were popular even before adition of competitive aspect to them becouse almost everyone farmed honor for pvp gear rolling a dice every time they joined a pug. As soon as better rewards became aviable through "competitive" BG setting ppls started to figure out what works best and found out obvious thing - casters. And what's most hilarious about that is the more casters you get in your team, the worse melee perfomance becomes for oposite team.

The long story short: if you're going to play RBGs stay away from melee, learn from Cata since MoP won't be too different in that aspect.

[darthades]

Actually things were like OP described for a long time already. Even now dominant RBG groups are stacking Boomkins/Affli Locks/Fire mages becouse of insane spread dmg they've, good kiting abilities, great support they're providing. Yeh there's a spot for melee flag carriers, occasional rogue for smoke bomb and healing debuff but core still consists of casters/healers. If we take a good look on MoP talents many ranged are getting new mobility moves/defensive cd's that'll allow them to maintain positioning better. For melee new mobility moves means only more ways to get into enemy crowd and get instawtfpwned. So for RBGs melees are looking incredibly bad in MoP.

I understand that casters need mobility/survivability to stay alive in arena where map has serious range limitations, but in BG that concept completly bones melee classes. So promoting 2 competitive PvP mode Blizz shoot itself in the leg - if casters and melee are balanced for arena setting then inevitably casters becomes kings in RBGs, if balance shifts towards RBG to bring casters and melees on equal footing then casters will be gimped for arena.

Imo Blizzard got scared by Warhammer Online and decided to promote "mass competitive" pvp in form of BGs. WO failed but left us with RBGs - ugly stepchildren of Blizz entertaiment.
BGs were popular even before adition of competitive aspect to them becouse almost everyone farmed honor for pvp gear rolling a dice every time they joined a pug. As soon as better rewards became aviable through "competitive" BG setting ppls started to figure out what works best and found out obvious thing - casters. And what's most hilarious about that is the more casters you get in your team, the worse melee perfomance becomes for oposite team.

The long story short: if you're going to play RBGs stay away from melee, learn from Cata since MoP won't be too different in that aspect.

True that, very accurate observations.

I know the events described are not new to MOP, but the problem is getting accentuated to unplayable levels even for random BGs which where mostly fine in CATA, also healers still were completely OP in non competitive play but now the imbalances are a new level of sillyness, i have seen healers tanking 8 dps with their CDs up for a minute buying enough time to escape, get help from ranged team mates.

[Phoenexis]

Pfff, you've got to be kidding me.

You keep evading, deflecting and "quoting history", i said wall because you are not interested in a discussion, it doesnt suit your interests, it is quite obvious.

Wanna play numbers?

ok in full S12 with 3 stacks of grace up

flash heal numbers? no cds, crit and non crit

greater heal numbers? no cds, crit and non crit

With ONE 2m cd trinket greater heal is 512k crit right? anyone can confirm?

How much for a chaos bolt with 3 cooldowns lined up, sacrifice,trinket and darksoul? factoring resilience/power, 3 second cast that requires acumulating resources

Post without lying your estimated melee/range ratio in both BGs and arenas in BETA, PTR.

There you go, no opinion, of course YOU WONT LIKE THOSE NUMBERS and will deflect like talking about how OP dks and locks are accordint to u and more offtopic gliberish.

Chaos Bolt isn't affected by GoSac. Other than that, I'd say that nobody would die at all. If healers are staying 30y away from casters then it is their fault, that won't happen in arena.
The game is just full of self-healing and defensive cooldowns, and when two coordinated teams fight against each other, I don't see how any of them could win, no matter what the comp.

---------- Post added 2012-08-07 at 08:52 AM ----------

PvP power would be a void stat for heals and absorb shields, they still need the resilience so no pve gear.

Whatever it takes to get to cata levels of damage/healing and resilience, there is no other way around, maybe a healing reduction debuff in BGs, arenas, but that is cheese and will ruin world PvP and health based self heals.

But if it's a void stat then doesn't it mean that DPS classes with off-heals won't have any better heals in ongoing patches while their health and damage scales up? Or are you talking about Heal specs only? Seems reasonable, but hard to implement.

---------- Post added 2012-08-07 at 08:53 AM ----------

Second as each class gains more abilities and escape mechanics with each expansion those that can deal damage from a safe distance have started to see the scales tip in their favor. A basic way to illustrate this is: these 2 classes are virtually identical except that one can do damage at close range and one can to damage at 35yards, why, in this scenario, would you take a melee. Its kinda like Guns vs knives

You're forgetting about Interrupts and LoS.