Why is the MoP mage specs so similar and homogenized?

[TaurenNinja]

I find mage boring in PvE but exciting in PvP.
If Blizzard can manage to make each spec a) viable for PvE (yes, Frost as well) and b) more unique, then mages will be in a great spot.

A mage in PvE should play roughly like this (and all specs should be viable):
a) Frost: Consistent burst/shatters + high survivability + high CC + medium mobility + low AoE dmg
b) Fire: Damage over Time (similar to Affliction Lock) + medium survivability + medium CC + high mobility + high AoE dmg
c) Arcane: Extreme burst within small timeframes + Mana Management + low survivability + medium everything else

If all mage specs play alike, then that's boring of course. A pure DPS class should have three unique specs and all three should be viable in PvE. Warlocks are in a pretty good position with that since they specialize on either dots, pets or burst, and all three of them are viable (in 4.3 at least).

[Deleted]

I don't understand what Blizzard has tried to achieve with pures with the idea of making the specs feel more like a same class. I remember GC saying "now it's where it's really interesting" when showing a pure talent tree back at Blizzcon but I don't see what's so interesting about it. How are the pures supposed to provide three meaningful gameplay experience when at the same time they tried to merge all spec into one ?

[Meillassoux]

zomgDPS

I understand where you're coming from and I agree with most things you say. I believe though that the main reason the mage class is left behind, as far as "interesting and cool" goes, is because too many people actually play this class. I think what blizzard tries to achieve is decreasing abit the mage playerbase and increase for example the locks in the game. That's my personal conclusion at least after watching every change from the start of beta till now. For a change to happen the class must first pass through a boring or broken phase. Of course I don't say I like this. Not even abit. And I have made many posts "whining" about many things. But at the end of the day I'll stick to the class and hope that in the expansion a miracle happens.
While saying all this I still believe Alter Time is a cool, unique and interesting mechanic in many ways. (although I don't like the color):P

[zomgDPS]

You could be right Meillassoux, it could be a case of 'population control'. Though I'm not sure if that would also explain whats happening to rogues, the other pure class going through a similar fate as mages during MoP beta (though I guess some could argue that Blizz doesn't mind rogues having a low pop, since the new class on the block is also a leather ninja type, so its ok for the rogue population to dwindle a bit).

And you are right, Alter time is kinda cool, though I would have loved if it actually became a mechanic of the class (or maybe one of the specs) instead of just a cooldown. We all have played with it by now and while it looks pretty and sounds nice, we all know deep down inside it will just be another thing we add into our "Macro of Doom" which we pop for PvE/PvP situations when we pop all our cooldowns and go to town. In that sense, its just another DPS cooldown.


It would be cool, for example, if "Time" became a secondary resource and mechanic for one of the specs themselves (say maybe Arcane).

You could then add a whole bunch of new and interesting mechanics to make it work. A good friend of mine, Logix (a career Arcane mage who sadly left WoW at the end of Cata and will mostly not seem to be returning for MoP) used to muse with me quite a few times on what a "Chronomancing Arcane Mage" would be like.

What kind of mechanics you say? Give me a minute to dig up the email he sent me, I found it quite fascinating (we were just spitballing at the time).

Here it is (I've edited out the stuff that has nothing to do with our spit balled efforts)

(nb. The [EDS NOTE]s are things I just added right now to give some of my thoughts (and to let you guys make sense of some of the directions Logix was coming from).

ZD,
Hope this email finds you well. Here were some of my thoughts leading on from our last conversation.

We could potentially connect the secondary resource, "Time" to the Arcanist. It would serve a pure 'utility' function and would have spells that allow the Arcanist to shore up his weaknesses, e.g. AoE Battlefield control. Plus, it would allow for a better mapping of the "mana management game" since the generation of the Time resource would be directly caused by the expenditure of mana.

To this effect, take a look over these efforts and tell me what you think.

At the top level (and with some extra 'lore flair'), we have a core transitional mechanic:

Gift of Nozdromu
Passive
For every damaging spell cast which costs mana, you gain the equivalent amount of Time.

This serves as the main method to generate the Time resource. With it, there can be a slew of things that the Arcanist can accomplish. Some can just be "Arcanified" versions of existing mage spells and utility, and some can add deeper gameplay. (take note my friend, Time 'costs' associated with these spells are relative and not absolute).

[ED NOTE: Logix was a big fan of Mage lore in WoW itself, and we would have a TON of conversations just about the direction of mages from a Lore standpoint. He saw the shift of Magekind in WoW away from Malygos and the Blue Dragonflight towards Nozdromu and the Bronze. He argued that this is represented in the Mage class not only gaining more abilities that manipulate time, but also as a natural conclusion from the Great Mana War against Malygos in Wrath].

Here are some basic examples of Replacements:

Slow
10 Time
Instant
Slows time around a target, reducing casting, movement, attack speed and the rate of effect of any harmful or beneficial effects by 60% for 15 seconds. Can only be cast on one target at a time.

You know I have never liked Slow's rather simple, one dimensional nature. It needs to be something more than just a snare or a tongues effect. Having it interact with Buffs and Debuffs would be an interesting mechanic, forcing the Arcanist to not only have more power, but an actual decision making aspect to the spells use, after all, you could end up slowing down a friendly Warlock's DoTs too, much to her chagrin.

Wave of Slow (Replaces Cone of Cold)
25 Time
1.5 sec cast
Slows down all enemies within X yards in front of the Mage, reducing casting, movement and attack speed by 50% for 10 seconds.

Chronoform (Replaces Ice Block)
Instant
Phases the mage in time, making him immune to all physical effects but preventing him from interacting with the physical world or causing any damage. Non damaging abilities can still be used. Also makes the Mage vulnerable to magical attacks which cause double damage. Holy Magic causes triple damage.
Drains 1 Time per second.

Chronoform serves a specific purpose. While I am not overly excited about a 'form' spell (you know my issues with shadowform), I see this to potentially add something a little more dynamic in its risk/reward payoff matrix.

Chronoprism Shield
10 Time
Channeled
Requires Chronoform
Reduces magical damage taken by 80% as long as the mage channels the spell. The mage can move at a 50% speed penalty while channeling this spell. Drains 10 Time per second for every second spent channeling. This shield reduces the damage of all schools of magic except for Holy magic.

I like the interaction something like this would add to the game as a whole. Giving priests a reason to turn to Holy magic from time to time (and putting the fire back in the eyes of Paladins).

[ED NOTE: He really had a thing for Holy Magic. He argued that it just was not used enough and he felt the game was letting itself down by letting an entire school of magic go to 'waste' as he put it. He also really didn't like what the Paladin archetype had become in WoW. He felt the Paladin class had lost its "Holy Warrior" roots and always found interesting ways to try to get them back up to "strength".]

Chronoshift (replaces Blink)
25 Time
Instant
15 sec cooldown
Shifts the Mage forward in time and space, removing any stuns or bonds. If cast again within 4 seconds, will send the Mage back to his original location.

Timelock (Replaces Deep Freeze)
20 Time
1.5 second cast
can be cast on allies or enemies
Locks the target in time for 10 seconds. All effects currently on the target are paused and all subsequent effects will apply when the target comes out of Timelock. Healing effects on enemies will apply with magnified effect when the duration ends. Damage effects on allies will apply with magnified effect.

I understand the need They want to fill with making Deep Freeze baseline, but I do not agree with the execution.
With a little effort, the same effect can be achieved but with a more interesting gameplay. Now true ZD, I can see you thinking "But Shatter?", but shatter doesn't really play a big role for Arcane anyway, except for more damage. The entire point of the exercise is to get Arcane away from its "just damage" single minded mentality.

Timeloop
25 Time
Instant
3 min cooldown
Places a friendly target in a timeloop for 10 seconds. If the target dies within that time, it will instantly be brought back in time with the same health and resources to the moment the timeloop was applied.

A much needed "help out an ally" spell for mages. We are mages after all, helping out allies should be one of our traits, especially if we can do it in a non-healer way. There is more to magic than just damage and healing my friend.

Save Time
10 Time
Instant
toggleable ability
Increases the cast time of spells by X%. Any spell cast during this period will gain you a stack of Saved Time. Maximum of 10 stacks.

Use Time
10 Time
Instant
Convert your stacks of Saved Time, decreasing the cast time of your spells by X%. The number of spells benefiting from this effect depends on the number of stacks of Saved Time converted.

One defining quality of Arcane is its ability to shift its potential damage at will, focusing it into specific moments of a fight. These two spells will evolve that playstyle, allowing the Arcanist the ability to effectively diminish his potential by essentially 'banking haste', only to use it later on elsewhere, but at will.
But I would surmise that this mechanic needs to be dynamic enough to let the Arcanist use it outside of just "burn" phases. I would think that its use could be numerous, like gaining a higher AB stack faster or "gaming" the stacks during movement (by gaining "Saved Time" stacks using ABr, which essentially is unaffected).
This could also help Arcanist mobility, essentially allowing him to "get back up and fighting" quicker after a period of heavy movement.

[ED NOTE: I personally really liked this particular idea of his. He wanted to evolve Arcane's playstyle going forward and build upon the strength the spec had in 'shifting its damage' around into different moments of the fight]

And to round up the transition, we have the Time to Mana conversion.

Chronobeam
10 Time
Channeled
Blasts the target with a beam of time, slowing its movement, cast time and attack speed by 8% every second up to a maximum of 60%. Drains 10 Time and regenerates 10 Mana for every second the Mage channels this spell.
After the beam ends, the effects slowly dissapates from the target.

An evocation-esque ability that's slightly more interesting. It needs a target to work, but also needs you to have spent the mana to gain the Time resource in the first place. Plus, it has an interesting PvP side effect.

Basically, what I wanted to show was perhaps what mages are lacking. Not just random cool looking spells, but actual mechanics themselves. He would go on in the email to talk about a lot of other potential ideas, and into quite a bit of depth about Arcane problems, but those are for a later time I think.

Logix saw an Arcane mage who was a master of manipulating time and space (anyone remember that description?). He saw this secondary resource, Time, as being a pure utility resource which allowed the Arcane gameplay to go beyond just "doing lots of single target damage". One of his biggest gripes with the spec (which I, and now many other mages on beta share btw) is that it is too one-dimensional. Its just about damage and just about 'burst', nothing more. Arcane cannot influence a fight beyond just damage (this was one of his biggest issues with the spec for a long time).


I think he was the kind of mage I would have wanted Blizz to listen to in the MoP beta. If nothing else, but to be a voice and perhaps even give some good ideas. This particular email of his was just his casual musing, but he understood the spec in a way I don't think I have seen many other mages understand it.

Oh well. Titan can't come soon enough I guess.

[Deleted]

rerolling from mage in mop dont care how they will play out tbh

[Meillassoux]

Hehe it's funny because the time concept is what I always dreamed for the mage to have. I find it fascinating that somebody looks like it wants it as bad as I do. I believe that sooner or later that's the direction mages will take. If you read the new WL book about how they got their powers etc they are saying that mages are starting playing with time. And yeah I believe what mages need in order to have a unique signature as a class is a new mechanic like shaman (totems) WLs (shards, pets, embers) druids (forms) priests (chakra, shadow orbs) etc etc. It's not that mages are boring rather than being too simple and raw. I hope Blizzard makes a story in the next expansion like they did with WLs about how Mages got new powers from the mysteries of Pandaria. And yeah after reading his ideas I really would like this Logix as a voice in our forums.

*A minor glyph fitting your concept. Glyph of Time Stop: Transforms your Polymorph spell into Time Stop. Does exactly the same thing but with a visual matching the name. (Dunno always hated polies-.-)

[Deleted]

I think that's more simple than population control : they have limited ressources to make huge changes to classes so they've set a priority. Mage is mostly seen as a good class, a safe choice for a class that works well. You'll often find people advising for the mage class when people are looking for a new main class. So really, that's not surprising that we were rather low on their priority list. At the other end of the spectrum, people often see warlocks as too complicated and overall a far worse choice than mage. Then there's the healing playstyle that needed tweaking from Cata, the previous class re-design that were finalized (holy power, shadow orb), they changed how tanking works, removed the shaman totem, worked on the monk and put the previous talent for all classes in the new system.

One can hope we will be fun enough for MoP but not so popular so we'll be first in line for the next class revamp

[Gamdwelf]

I'm surprised that some people are actually taking zomgDPS seriously.

[Meillassoux]

I'm surprised that some people are actually taking zomgDPS seriously.

Why? Do you believe a unique time themed arcane mechanic would be a bad idea? And if yes why?

[Asmodian]

Similar? Lol. Go play vanilla with fire spec only fireball spam, frost only frostbolt spam and arcane with only AM spam.

[Gamdwelf]

Why? Do you believe a unique time themed arcane mechanic would be a bad idea? And if yes why?

Mostly because he is stating that Lhiv, doesn't care about the class and just wants it to be RP and balanced instead of mechanically good.

[Alvito]

This is kinda the case with all of the pure dps classes in MoP. Most of them have 90% of the same attacks and are only really different in name. Maybe it will change mages were kinda fucked to start Cata and that didn't last. Lets just hope they dont leave out a bunch of major glyphs again and leave all specs some what lack luster for a few weeks.

---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 07:54 AM ----------

Similar? Lol. Go play vanilla with fire spec only fireball spam, frost only frostbolt spam and arcane with only AM spam.

Yup the answer to this is rewinding the clocks and going to a very boring stage of the game.

[Ellsian]

Mostly because he is stating that Lhiv, doesn't care about the class and just wants it to be RP and balanced instead of mechanically good.

I dunno, he's really not that far off. If you've been reading beta forums for the past couple of months, a lot of Lhivera's 'feedback' consists of words like: flavorful, roleplay, balanced, the dev's vision, etc. He didn't even level to 90 on the beta but makes comments on game play and the 90 talents all the time. Unfortunately it seems a lot of weight is being put into his words, since back from the first large 90 talent thread they mvp'd him and ignore everyone else. Can we really blame the devs for wanting to mvp someone who attemps to do their balance work for them? It's creates an echo chamber since he rarely says a word against any of their design decisions and people tend to follow green text discussion. Not everything can be blamed on Lhivera of course, and it would be silly to claim that. The devs make their own decisions, but i do believe he's been more detrimental to the design of the class from a gameplay (not balance) perspective than helpful because his feedback is so sim-biased and inexperienced, focusing more on balance and flavor than actual practicality, ease of use, raid gameplay, and fun.

But enough about that, we should get back to the topic of homogenization of the specs, of which I think definitely holds merits. Between the talents and now fire being reduced to only 2 spread targets, it really seems that's the path we're going on.

[Gamdwelf]

I dunno, he's really not that far off. If you've been reading beta forums for the past couple of months, a lot of Lhivera's 'feedback' consists of words like: flavorful, roleplay, balanced, the dev's vision, etc. He didn't even level to 90 on the beta but makes comments on game play and the 90 talents all the time. Unfortunately it seems a lot of weight is being put into his words, since back from the first large 90 talent thread they mvp'd him and ignore everyone else. Can we really blame the devs for wanting to mvp someone who attemps to do their balance work for them? It's creates an echo chamber since he rarely says a word against any of their design decisions and people tend to follow green text discussion. Not everything can be blamed on Lhivera of course, and it would be silly to claim that. The devs make their own decisions, but i do believe he's been more detrimental to the design of the class from a gameplay (not balance) perspective than helpful because his feedback is so sim-biased and inexperienced, focusing more on balance and flavor than actual practicality, ease of use, raid gameplay, and fun.

No, I haven't been reading the Beta stuff, and I can't belive that Lhiv would say those things, so that is why earlier in the thread i asked if somebody to could direct me to them for actual evidence of that, but nobody has yet to do so.

[schwarzkopf]

That was my point.
The argument that mage specs are too similar because they share a filler spell, a bomb and a proc is a ludicrous argument.

All DPS are the same, they all do damage to things - just with different names

[Ellsian]

No, I haven't been reading the Beta stuff, and I can't belive that Lhiv would say those things, so that is why earlier in the thread i asked if somebody to could direct me to them for actual evidence of that, but nobody has yet to do so.

these are just a few I could pull out from searching, there are much worse. There was one in particular that was very bad, that all the mages balked at, i'll try to find it later.

specs are for role play to lhivera, not to play more different:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...669?page=8#160
"What I'm saying is that that's irrelevant, because the most important purpose of spec isn't to differentiate mechanics and playstyle, it's to help define your character. Not what your character does, but who your character is. What are his natural aptitudes, and how has that shaped his personality? What has she spent a lifetime of training and experience learning, and why?

It is of course good for specs to have different playstyles - I'm pleased that Blizzard put some effort into making the three Mage specs play more differently in Cataclysm - but that's not what specs are for, as far as I'm concerned."

Arguing against respecing because it kills RPing:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7803?page=2#29

A thread about spec identity, more roleplay talk:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...65242?page=1#7

talk of needing a Lore explanation for a glyph:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...078?page=8#151

advocating for an elemental rp glyph:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...59?page=10#184
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...59?page=10#181

[Deleted]

There was quite a lot of discussion in the Mages in Mop:too easy? too

[Gamdwelf]

After reading all his posts I actually agree with him for the most part.

And nowhere does he say that its fine the way the lvl 90 talents are now, he is fine that they are able to change the way you play your class, but makes no comment on how how much he likes or dislikes the lvl 90 talents.

[Jimm3]

After reading all his posts I actually agree with him for the most part.

And nowhere does he say that its fine the way the lvl 90 talents are now, he is fine that they are able to change the way you play your class, but makes no comment on how how much he likes or dislikes the lvl 90 talents.

Is it because you like playing frost and don't care much about the other specs?

[Ellsian]

After reading all his posts I actually agree with him for the most part.

And nowhere does he say that its fine the way the lvl 90 talents are now, he is fine that they are able to change the way you play your class, but makes no comment on how how much he likes or dislikes the lvl 90 talents.

Do you like RPing?

And you need to read more then, he defends the talents all through this thread for instance, and this just one of many:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2942012?page=4

another thread he defends the talents:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6147176069