LFR - actually not bad

[Whiskra]

I'm glad they will delay LFR with 1 week at least for MoP, because I certainly wouldn't want any of my first experiences and impressions of raids to be in it. I guess some, nearly all, if I'm to judge by comments on this forum, think otherwise. I must think those who do, simply don't like normal raiding and above, because of everything that comes with it, be it having to commit to a schedule that interferes with IRL, or the demands people put on you in pugs. But if you overcome those thresholds, which I personally think are not at all as hard to overcome as many players want to imply, normal raiding and above is a much more enjoyable experience than LFR by a long shot. People WILL work for the group, people WILL not ninja the loot you might want (in most cases), and you WILL tie positive bonds with other people, considering the group is good (whenever I make a pug, rarely so, I often try to invoke positive feelings in chat to get people to be friendly with eachother and generally have a good time).

However, LFR is a good stepping stone for people who never raided before, but it's not teaching people the right things imo. LFR feels like it's only ever about the loot, and nothing else. Sure, loot is fun in it's own way, and who am I to tell you that you're not having fun with only LFR? I'm just saying that I think "real" raiding is so much better in every aspect, and I want others to realize that, and that it's not as far out of reach as they seem to think.

Now, I don't really want to start an argument about casual vs hardcore raiding, or LFR vs heroic mode, this is not the thread for that, and I'm honestly tired of that bullshit discussion. I just wanted to put out my comment here, and I won't respond to anyone who doesn't agree with my opinion.

[Sooprbamp]

I do appreciate the LFR system. I really do. I'm not a casual either, I only ever ran the thing like twice, but I am glad it offers opportunity to players who prefer a casual playstyle.

That said, my only qualm with LFR is the inclusion of the final bosses of each teir. I can't shake the feeling that it would give players more incentive to clear normal for a shot at seeing the baddest baddies of the game. I know my first deathwing kill was pretty disappointing considering that I had already killed him on easymode. With this model, I feel like it would progress nicely from no final boss in LFR, to final boss in normal, to final boss with heroic phase on heroic.

[Hanto]

LFR is the best thing Cataclysm brought to us. Its fun, its accesible and it gives some rewards.

I'd argue transmog was the best thing Cata brought to us, but that's my opinion.

OT: Yeah, LFR is a great experience if you don't have the time for anything else. The first couple of weeks (or even months) were hell though, as people tend not to know mechanics and get stomped. (Ultraxion, I'm looking at you)

[Rakoth]

I do appreciate the LFR system. I really do. I'm not a casual either, I only ever ran the thing like twice, but I am glad it offers opportunity to players who prefer a casual playstyle.

That said, my only qualm with LFR is the inclusion of the final bosses of each teir. I can't shake the feeling that it would give players more incentive to clear normal for a shot at seeing the baddest baddies of the game. I know my first deathwing kill was pretty disappointing considering that I had already killed him on easymode. With this model, I feel like it would progress nicely from no final boss in LFR, to final boss in normal, to final boss with heroic phase on heroic.

Why do people still believe this is about motivation? I am motivated (and skilled enough) to do Normal and even heroics DS (Monday was a day off in Canada, and I actually lead a normal DS run to completion, my rogue's first DS Normal). I do LFR because I can't commit to raid times. Heck, I can't even commit to PUGs most times. LFR is a boon to me because I can leave halfway and not feel bad they have to replace me.

[Heksar]

Cool a positive comment about LFR! My first experience with it couple days ago was also positive. Though we downed only 1 boss, some part of deathwing fight probably? I really have no idea what it was, but we didn't wipe once, it was quick to get the group together and for me who came back from a long break it was challenging enough (I was the only 1 who died..) Only it didn't ofc have the same feeling as guildruns do, meaning that unity feeling.. Now we just got ported in, got the group together and killed the boss. I remember the times without LFR, waiting at ICC entrance with guildies and fooling around. Was alot of fun. But the point was that LFR is a working thing in my opinion!

[Findinnan]

Raid Finder was a good addition to the game, for sure. Its useful for pretty much all kinds of players, even the elitist idiots who rag on it.

I think Raid Finder is great too. I loved using it for my alts and to kill time and get Valor Points. I actually think they should open it up at the same time as normal versions, but the final boss of a raid should be locked to you until it is downed on your server. I know that is a technical nightmare and I'm not even a special snowflake. I've only downed 3 bosses on heroic in Dragon Soul. I do think those people progressing through normal mode should get a little bonus of seeing the end boss killed before the LFR does.

[Count Zero]

Most people consider LFR as on excellent addition. The vocal minority of goobers occupying the forums just tend to disagree due to losing part of their special snowflakeness.

Here's the thing I don't get, tho: while I agree this seems to be a fairly-accurate assessment of why people hate on LFR, I don't get how it's a valid argument on their part.

You don't ever hear about the folks in Method/Ensidia/KIN Raiders complaining about LFR. They all ran it to get their set bonuses and then never said a word about it (except if you count any statements folks made regarding their suspensions for abusing the gear bug), so obviously the very top level players have no problems with it (at least no problems worth ranting on forums about).

So I think it stands to reason that those folks didn't lose any prestige over the existence of LFR -- I never heard anyone say, "Yeah, we got world 1st heroic, but goddamn those casuals who got to clear it on LFR. Really takes away from all the effort we put in".

It doesn't take away anything from anyone, yet these people keep saying it does. All I can think is that these are middle-core raiders who aren't good enough to be truly high-end raiders, and they are begging papa Blizzard to extend the delineation between mid-core raiders and casual raiders, because they aren't capable themselves of distancing themselves from the casual raiders. Although really even on this point I'm stuck, because I don't see how someone who is 5-8heroic in a couple months is less prestigious than someone who is 1-5heroic in several months.

---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 04:44 PM ----------

I'm just saying that I think "real" raiding is so much better in every aspect, and I want others to realize that, and that it's not as far out of reach as they seem to think.

I think this is actually one of the biggest benefits of LFR: I think it does just this, help people see that it's not really all that huge a leap to go from dungeons to raids. Before I made that transition myself back in BC (although I got in the game a bit late to really get into raiding, so I didn't fully transition until Wrath), raiding seemed like this very ominous thing with a near-insurmountable barrier to entry. A lot of other efforts they've made have helped ease that perception for newer players (many introduced in BC itself -- badge gear, 10-player raids), but I think LFR is the biggest. I know plenty of folks who didn't think they'd be cut out for raiding until they cleared LFR.

Now, whether they could actually make the transition from LFR to normal modes is another thing entirely -- but my point is that it opened an opportunity for them, and I think that's a great thing. As an officer in my guild, I love the idea that the potential pool of raiders is becoming an increasing proportion of the game's populace at large. The more people who decide they like raiding, the more chances I have of finding someone who's going to be a great addition to our team ... and I don't need any more reasons to love LFR. Extra chances at set bonuses and elusive trinkets is just icing on the cake.

[Saffa]

Here's the thing I don't get, tho: while I agree this seems to be a fairly-accurate assessment of why people hate on LFR, I don't get how it's a valid argument on their part.

You don't ever hear about the folks in Method/Ensidia/KIN Raiders complaining about LFR. They all ran it to get their set bonuses and then never said a word about it (except if you count any statements folks made regarding their suspensions for abusing the gear bug), so obviously the very top level players have no problems with it (at least no problems worth ranting on forums about).

So I think it stands to reason that those folks didn't lose any prestige over the existence of LFR -- I never heard anyone say, "Yeah, we got world 1st heroic, but goddamn those casuals who got to clear it on LFR. Really takes away from all the effort we put in".

It doesn't take away anything from anyone, yet these people keep saying it does. All I can think is that these are middle-core raiders who aren't good enough to be truly high-end raiders, and they are begging papa Blizzard to extend the delineation between mid-core raiders and casual raiders, because they aren't capable themselves of distancing themselves from the casual raiders. Although really even on this point I'm stuck, because I don't see how someone who is 5-8heroic in a couple months is less prestigious than someone who is 1-5heroic in several months.

---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 04:44 PM ----------



I think this is actually one of the biggest benefits of LFR: I think it does just this, help people see that it's not really all that huge a leap to go from dungeons to raids. Before I made that transition myself back in BC (although I got in the game a bit late to really get into raiding, so I didn't fully transition until Wrath), raiding seemed like this very ominous thing with a near-insurmountable barrier to entry. A lot of other efforts they've made have helped ease that perception for newer players (many introduced in BC itself -- badge gear, 10-player raids), but I think LFR is the biggest. I know plenty of folks who didn't think they'd be cut out for raiding until they cleared LFR.

Now, whether they could actually make the transition from LFR to normal modes is another thing entirely -- but my point is that it opened an opportunity for them, and I think that's a great thing. As an officer in my guild, I love the idea that the potential pool of raiders is becoming an increasing proportion of the game's populace at large. The more people who decide they like raiding, the more chances I have of finding someone who's going to be a great addition to our team ... and I don't need any more reasons to love LFR. Extra chances at set bonuses and elusive trinkets is just icing on the cake.

Good post, probably because I agree with all of it

[Eliot123]

It's nice when people in LFR are nice. However, most of the time people in LFR act as the very rock bottom of humanity, something that I would not wish upon anyone and which I would rate right behind World Wars I and II as ''atrocious human behaviour''.

[Ryme]

It's about as interesting as a new dungeon, great for the first day or week, and then that's about it.

---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 07:56 PM ----------

Most people consider LFR as on excellent addition. The vocal minority of goobers occupying the forums just tend to disagree due to losing part of their special snowflakeness.

No, completely wrong. With the special snowflake statement though, I wasn't expecting this to be right.

[ganush]

Most people consider LFR as on excellent addition. The vocal minority of goobers occupying the forums just tend to disagree due to losing part of their special snowflakeness.

I am pretty neutral on the subject and think LFR was a good addition to the game, tho I think it needs some tweaking in how it's implemented to for the good of the game. I don't like the idea of 'everyone' being able to kill an end boss week 2 of an expansion, because I think it shortens the lifespan of the content to the point where people get bored more quickly. I don't think that's good for the game, so would like to see a little more gating in LFR. I also would like to see shared lockouts for a similar reason, player burnout. More people playing for longer is good for WoW.

As for your special snowflake comment. I'm so sick of everyone using that as a fallback without even listening to the arguments against LFR. Yes, there is a sector of the WoW population that are elitist assholes, but for everyone of those there is someone like you on the opposite end of the spectrum that is just as intolerant of someone else's playstyle and just as blind to how development decisions affect that end of the playerbase. Calling people 'special snowflakes' is just as stupid as calling someone a 'mouth-breather' because they don't play as well as you. There are plenty of players who don't mind LFR but would like to see it changed and some of us think our reasons would actually benefit the game and the player base.

To the OP, I'm glad your RF experience was a good one, and I'm happy that it contributed to your enjoyment of the game.

[Paloro]

While I think that LFR has a lot of good ideas, I really hope that it is implemented better in MoP.

I have done LFR on my main twice since it came out, but on my alts it's a completely different story. What I gripe about is the extremely lazy people in LFR. I will admit that I cheat to get into it, be it by having cloth gear in my bag or an OS trinket....I'm sure most of you do too, however when i'm 363 itlvl I shouldn't be in the top 10 dps period. It just goes to show how ignorant people are of the fight mechanics or their own dps rotations. There have been plenty of times where you have 2-3 people just /afk throughout the entire fight and then others that will just autoattack or mages that spam scorch.

It's great that Blizzard is opening up fights to the masses, but to clear the last tier in sub 2 hours with having no experience in the place before is a bit rediculous.

[nowish]

The only reason I hate LFR is because it contributes to the direction the game is heading towards, which I do not agree with. I understand that some people don't have alot of time on their hands but the concept of, in the case with LFR, seeing the whole content right away while it requires almost no effort at all. I seriously can't understand the fun in that, why is it so important to be able to experience the content right away? An mmorpg , to me, stands for something you put down alot of time and effort in, not something you play casually once a week and demand to experience the new content at a lvl which is accessible for everyone. I saw a video about some guy telling his story of why he believes WoW is starting to feel "not so epic" anymore to most players. Anyway, the point is that in previous expansions, the content was released and then it was up to the players to make their journey and access the instances, through attunements and gearing in previous raids and what not. Now it's basicly a demand from the majority of the playerbase (the casual one I believe, correct me if Im wrong) that they should be able to experience the latest content when it goes live regardless of when they entered the game, and so lootpiñata dungeons were born (like reformed 5 man ZA, the hour of twilight ones etc).

Why is this a problem you might ask, let people play their game and mind your own business... Isn't an mmorpg supposed to have a journey? you lvl up your character, you fight through dungeons to gear yourself up so that you can enter the raiding instances to fight the threat to this world and save w/e! What is the point to skip Bastion of twilight, Blackwing Decent and even Firelands, just to enter a dumbed down version of the current content which makes you kill the end boss with almsot no effort. The BIGGEST THREAT throughout the whole expansion has been deathwing , and you can simply enter wiht 24 random people, stand afk and easily manage to kill the boss which is supposed to end the expansion. I can't see, how that is even creating a little bit of epic feeling for anyone who participated in the run. The best raiding system in this game was the one in TBC (IMHO). I sure as hell would not demand to get pushed up to the standards of black temple and skip KZ, Mag, Gruul or even TK/SSC. I remember the days when guilds searched for raiders, to raid KZ, gruul, ssc and tk when black temple was out. Now how many guilds do you see recruiting for firelands, Bot or bwd? "You can gather some friends and just go back to the instances and do them if you want" is an argument I hear far too often, and it really isn't the same thing to do an old raid instance when you've been spoonfed purple pixels to the standards above the previous raiding content... Now again, sure you can make the previous instance harder by doing it naked if you want it harder, but the point is not that it's supposed to be hard, it's that you got stages which you need to get to. Why is there a need to rush through the game at any possible chance you get?

Another reason why I prefer the TBC modell is that the people had to advance through the content and unlock the next stage, and thus learning thing from the journey, improving their skill and what not. Now a complete new player can just do some semi-afking in the 5 mans, join LFR and boom, he has seen all of the current content. What to do now? oh ye let's try some normals, but wait, he got no previous raiding experience apart from the LFR (which doesn't count) So he will be learning from scratch how to raid, in a raid that's supposed to be the "hardest" in the game at the given time. No one see the problem there?

You might think you are happy now with the LFR model but I can asure you, that if you experienced the things Im coming from, you would think differently. I understand that the game is about having fun, sometimes with friends, sometimes with strangers, but the fact remains that blizzard limited the journey and reduced the stages which you need to climp to , in order to "beat" the game which makes me really sad in my nostalgic heart.

TL;DR
It's in the game, why wouldn't you use it. It's just too bad it affects the community in a negative way and gives a lesser experience for people who just don't know better.
You pay for this game to have the opportunity, if you put down effort and time, to experience the content. It's up to the players to get it (or at least it was), not something you SHOULD experience, regardless of what you do in game.

I sincerely hope MoP fix alot of these problems that annoyes me!
Peace out.

[Rakoth]

You might think you are happy now with the LFR model but I can asure you, that if you experienced the things Im coming from, you would think differently. I understand that the game is about having fun, sometimes with friends, sometimes with strangers, but the fact remains that blizzard limited the journey and reduced the stages which you need to climp to , in order to "beat" the game which makes me really sad in my nostalgic heart.

TL;DR
It's in the game, why wouldn't you use it. It's just too bad it affects the community in a negative way and gives a lesser experience for people who just don't know better.
You pay for this game to have the opportunity, if you put down effort and time, to experience the content. It's up to the players to get it (or at least it was), not something you SHOULD experience, regardless of what you do in game.

I sincerely hope MoP fix alot of these problems that annoyes me!
Peace out.

Ohh wow... Thanks for that. I had no idea I was enjoying the game wrong. How dare I, an ex-hardcore world top 50 raider, have fun with LFR now that the challenge is gone. How dare I go about getting a life, meeting the women of my dreams and not have time to EARN my in game progression.

How about we change the "you must spend this many hours logged in to raid DS" from 10 hours a week to 40 hours a week? Would that be fair? My old self would have no problem keeping up with that (vanilla and TBC Hardcore - third rogue to reach 70 on my server and the realm first 70 was a rogue). think of a scenario where you would be excluded for raiding because you don't commit to enough time a week. Would that be fair? Why are you asking for this same scenario under a threshold YOU set.

Ohh, and to address your concern about recruiting: As the rogue recruiter for my guild, it was a PITA to recruit. Most of the people I ran "test" runs with weren't up to standards. We had no gear standards, only rotation and class knowledge ones, we could gear a good player, so it wasn't even the "attunement" barrier most had. People aren't very good at this game. Learn to embrace that, it will set you free.

[nowish]

Ohh wow... Thanks for that. I had no idea I was enjoying the game wrong. How dare I, an ex-hardcore world top 50 raider, have fun with LFR now that the challenge is gone. How dare I go about getting a life, meeting the women of my dreams and not have time to EARN my in game progression.

How about we change the "you must spend this many hours logged in to raid DS" from 10 hours a week to 40 hours a week? Would that be fair? My old self would have no problem keeping up with that (vanilla and TBC Hardcore - third rogue to reach 70 on my server and the realm first 70 was a rogue). think of a scenario where you would be excluded for raiding because you don't commit to enough time a week. Would that be fair? Why are you asking for this same scenario under a threshold YOU set.

Ohh, and to address your concern about recruiting: As the rogue recruiter for my guild, it was a PITA to recruit. Most of the people I ran "test" runs with weren't up to standards. We had no gear standards, only rotation and class knowledge ones, we could gear a good player, so it wasn't even the "attunement" barrier most had. People aren't very good at this game. Learn to embrace that, it will set you free.

FIrst of all, you can enjoy the game however you want, I said it was my opinion of it all. If I couldn't commit to raiding in a guild at least 3 hours / 3 days a week I would simply quit the game and find something else to do with the little spare time I obviously had left. Im just saying that when u started playing, you would probably understand that this isn't a normal type of singleplayer game where you complete it in , for instance, 2 hours. It's an on going experience until the point there is nothing left to do in the game. For me, it's when I cleared all the content there is, as Im not an achievement whore and couldn't care less about it. But I can't see how the LFR can be the whole game to some people, that doesn't make any sense. It's less time consuming sure and u get to see the whole content AT ONCE but wouldn't it be like... funnier to drag it out abit? progress through normal maybe 1-2 hours 1/2/3 days a week with some people you actually enjoy playing with? This is a serious asked question, which I would really like to be answered because if you pay 10 euros (or w/e it is) a month for something that you don't even need to be mentally present to complete, then I really don't understand how someone can continue playing this game, I would instantly quit. And again this is just my opinion, Im just trying to enligthen people that there was another option to what they experienced and alot of people who was present during those times are prefering it > the live standards there are today.
Don't get me wrong, it's great that people feel that there is something they can enjoy in the game... I just don't think that it fits the WoW I knew and the WoW I played now for 7 years, it goes against everything I "fell in love with" (how disturbing that may sound). My point on it all is that Blizzard, in their greed to attract more/keep their current subscribers they change the concept of the game far too much, which has made the game lost it's "touch/soul" w/e you want to call it... I can't express myself more clearer of what I meant. If you still think Im a horrible person for wanting to keep/ convert it back to the game it was, then go ahead. But the fact that u even call LFR progress is silly. LFR isn't and shouldn't be the way the game is played to see the content. Then you could be better off watching a "let's play" clip on youtube, it's basicly the same isn't it? People can have fun in all kinds of way within the game, wheter it's on ur lvl 30 char or 85 char, but that's not my point at all. Just because you are enjoying the LFR doesn't mean u can't enjoy the things Im talking about. And just because I say they are great doesn't mean u can't hate them either. It's a matter of opinion but take a look at the game and ask if it's really "World of warcraft - Mmorpg" since it sure as hell doesn't feel like that to me.

Who continue to play this game if they don't have much time at all to do so? It baffles me. It's like buying a freaking book, then you realize that you got no time to read the whole one so u rip out 60% of the pages and then you read it. What did that give you? jackshit, a story that probably didn't make sense, but you did it within a day, congratulations. It feels like the vast majority play WoW with these standards and they are the reason so much shit is beeing changed, which really makes it hard for people who don't think like that to enjoy the game. The way I believe WoW was and how it should have continued to be.

And what you wrote, that u had no gear standards only rotation and class knowledge. Don't you think people learn their classes easier if they raid proper content rather than dumbed down raids like LFR? If you aren't amazingly skilled, maybe you shouldn't raid DS, but instead go back to BoT / Bwd to get some feeling about the mechanics in this game and how to utilize your abilities in a environment less "stressfull?" (think that's the world Im looking for, but abit tired to might be off). People aren't very good at this game, and do u think they will get better by doing things like LFR? I would go insane if I tried to pug normal runs with people who seemed to have the skill (since they got decent gear) but in reality they are just LFR-apes. Anyway as I said, I hope they resolve the current problems with the LFR system and the raiding system in general in MoP, so that "my" thoughts and "yours" can meet and even ground.

Regarding the "change hours a week 10 blabla 40". That's still not the point if you actually read the post. Let's say you spend 5 hours a week in this game. The thing and the point Im trying to make is that, you could spend that time (5 hours a week) on the journey that this game is supposed to have. Instead you spend it in LFR with strangers and you one shot pretty much every boss. If the equallity to 1 full LFR clear (let's say 2 hours) is 10 hours for a normal clear, then why don't you use the 5 hours a week and progress through the normal one and you will be done in 2 weeks. This is a very random and not precise estimation at all but the points remains the same, why do people want to experience everything RIGHT NOW. What is the harm in waiting a little bit for it? If you can't put down ALOT of effort and time into the game, then don't. I bet there are alot of people who want to raid normals / heroics, but they don't have alot of time, DING DING DING an idea, create a guild for those people who only want/can raid 1-2 hours a day and that would be something I could agree with. Doing LFR is not playing the game, it's almost like typing in the cheatcode to enter the next stage or just complete the game completely.

I respect your opinions and maybe it's I who has grown out of the game and I should search for something else to put my time into as I obviously do not agree wit hthe direction it's heading towards, but Im allowed to make my voice heard right?

[Deleted]

Ohh wow... Thanks for that. I had no idea I was enjoying the game wrong. How dare I, an ex-hardcore world top 50 raider, have fun with LFR now that the challenge is gone. How dare I go about getting a life, meeting the women of my dreams and not have time to EARN my in game progression.

Pretty standard comment I hear regulary in capital cities chat, "but I have life, not like those kids!". Albeit more than half of our guild have families with children. If you ever been in a good guild then you should know that rading doesn't take that much time, especially in top-50 guild where you clear everything in a month and do nothing until next expansion.

[Deleted]

I love your post! All the hating is not needed. We know you won't win loot every run, took me a while to get the 4set!

My first time doing LFR was awesome and even won 2 items! Smooth as diarrhea going out of your arse!

[nowish]

Pretty standard comment I hear regulary in capital cities chat, "but I have life, not like those kids!". Albeit more than half of our guild have families with children. If you ever been in a good guild then you should know that rading doesn't take that much time, especially in top-50 guild where you clear everything in a month and do nothing until next expansion.

Exactly, you don't need to sit and play 24/7 to actually do the "real" content...

[FluFF]

LFR is a great system for alts and at the beginning of a tier , but it really needs the MoP lootsystem in place.

Sadly the community has proven they cannot handle the current one.

[Rakoth]

Exactly, you don't need to sit and play 24/7 to actually do the "real" content...

Really? Did you guys play in TBC and Vanilla? I raided 5 nights a week, had Friday and Saturday night off and usually used it to farm consumables or resistance gear or rep to craft resistance gear. Those of you that think hardcore is only a few hours a week; you guys are mid-core. Hardcore is world top 25, and they work on fights constantly.

What do the realm first guilds do when content releases? They only play for a few hours a week? Even the above poster said, 1 month after release. You expect many guilds will like a member that show's up after the first month when content is on farm. I used to be an officer in a highly competitive guild, and those fair-weather members were removed quickly.

I am sorry, if my point was misunderstood. I am not willing to sacrifice even one night a week to dedicated raiding. Now, the pugging model is much better for me. I get home, I talk to the fiancee and I determine I have a few hours to play wow.

I am not willing to schedule my life around WoW, and most competitive guilds don't do very well with unscheduled content.

---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 05:15 PM ----------

I love your post! All the hating is not needed. We know you won't win loot every run, took me a while to get the 4set!

My first time doing LFR was awesome and even won 2 items! Smooth as diarrhea going out of your arse!

I only have 4 set on one character and I usually have time for 3 LFR's a week. You know what, it doesn't even bother me. I get valor and I progress, and I have fun. I love LFR. (I hate LFR afkers and trolls tho...)