Consolidated Shadow Beta Issues

[Celentes]

One thing that I didn't notice in this thread yet is our total lack of "on movement" spells. I´ve found it highly frustrating that we have absolutely nothing we could spam while running around (you cant count on having procs or cooldowns up all the time you´re moving). Currently on live you could just spam DP and get at least some dmg in while doing so. Now we have nothing, and we are only class that has this issue it´s just the same thing ele shamans had before they gave unleash lighting glyph

SWP has a tick of damage upfront when you cast it. It's really bad, but I think they've intended it to replace the DP spam.

[Deleted]

One thing that I didn't notice in this thread yet is our total lack of "on movement" spells. I´ve found it highly frustrating that we have absolutely nothing we could spam while running around (you cant count on having procs or cooldowns up all the time you´re moving). Currently on live you could just spam DP and get at least some dmg in while doing so. Now we have nothing, and we are only class that has this issue it´s just the same thing ele shamans had before they gave unleash lighting glyph

shadow word pain now works like devouring plague does damage when you use it though seems not quite as much as the devouring plague

[Deleted]

Yeah true that. Sadly it´s just lackbuster compared to what others have, single target + movement on same fight currently makes me just wanna log my shaman atm.

[Celentes]

Yeah true that. Sadly it´s just lackbuster compared to what others have, single target + movement on same fight currently makes me just wanna log my shaman atm.

What does xenophics think about the new shadow model?

I'm watching what they will do until the launch, but will probably not stay spriest unless they give me a good reason to.

[Deleted]

What does xenophics think about the new shadow model?

I'm watching what they will do until the launch, but will probably not stay spriest unless they give me a good reason to.

She hasn´t been playing it that much as she wont be raiding in first tier of panda. But ye, shadow is bit weird atm. Adding more targets to the fight really makes us strong but having lots of movement or/and just one target makes us bottom of the dps ;c Guess I end up just playing alt in those fights

[Deleted]

She hasn´t been playing it that much as she wont be raiding in first tier of panda. But ye, shadow is bit weird atm. Adding more targets to the fight really makes us strong but having lots of movement or/and just one target makes us bottom of the dps ;c Guess I end up just playing alt in those fights

Kind of agree with this, after the beta 25 hc tests I feel that shadow is clunky and does not have a clear flow. It feels like an arms warrior (dot procs) combined with a retribution paladin, only with:

A) A boring/no point orb system with Devouring Plague as the only spender at 3 orbs in PVE.
B) A dps system with no fluent flow if you take FDCL (which outperforms the other talents in same tier at the moment). As the emphasis has shifted from dots to mind flay, mindspike and mindblast as highest dps source on singletarget dps it feels not intuitive to cast the FDCL proc instead of mindflay in order to not cap the two charges.
C) DI, PI and TF tier talents seem to have not as good synergy as shadow. PI is only haste and mana cost reduction, not a strong burst cooldown. It does not affect the current prime damage spells such as mindspike and mindblast, and to a lesser extend mindflay. DI for singletarget has too low proc but in combination with FDCL it turns the playflow like whack-a-mole (same with multidot scenario's). TF can cause juggling-with-buffs syndrome in scenario's with alot of raid damage and/or alot of adds.
D) Halo outvalueing other talents same tier + bugs on terrace hitting only 2 targets instead of cap even when in range
E) In multidot scenario's where targets are clumped up but less then x amount to use mindsear on, the multidotting aspect and casting the procs requires a higher performance cap compared to other classes, but yield mediocre results compared to other classes or vs simply dot prime target and mindsear (debatable, but still causes a weird flow of dpsing when multidotting)
F) people complained about empowered shadows and shadow orb randomness. Now instead you have a system based on random procs.
G) scaling issues with mindspike and mindblast in future tiers.
H) opportunity unused for shadow orb mechanic. The other application is Psychic Horror and with initial cast requiring an orb is making me roll my eyes what the developers were thinking. Correct me if I am wrong if they removed the initial cost of orbs.

What my point comes down is that at the moment the playstyle has shifted from dots to procs emphasis and does not feel fluent at all (Our filler spell does more damage then what our main nuke supposed to be. Procs are on second or third but also conflicts with our filler spell that deals most damage at the moment). it requires more performance from the player (example would be spirit kings HC 25 man) yet yields sub par dps. More effort=not as much rewarded. Wish I could post on usa beta forums instead of the forsaken EU one..

[Venaliter]

Also dont forget void shift just take some poor fuckers hp also can you use it on the pet that gets mana back?
off topic but I'm rolling from retri live to SP mop must be why I love it soo much and not fan of the new ret

You can't actually void shift an enemy target by yourself. Dominate Mind is Channeled, and void Shift will break the channel. I think. But you can use it on your pet for a heal - The trade off is you pretty much lose your burst CD, because PI is a bad joke.

Kind of agree with this, after the beta 25 hc tests I feel that shadow is clunky and does not have a clear flow.
F) people complained about empowered shadows and shadow orb randomness. Now instead you have a system based on random procs.

The people who complained about this should have been marched against a wall and shot. Then, and now. All we needed was an interrupt and removal of the ramp-up. We exchanged pretty much the most enjoyable rotation in the game for the most awkward one.

I won't even use FDCL. I refuse. I'll warm the bench or rather just play another game then use that steaming pile.

[Deleted]

I like how priest played at the start of MoP beta.

[arleni1988]

I like how priest played at the start of MoP beta.

^So much this^

It was decent at the start of beta, but it feels so clunky. The rotation is bad and boring, no fluidity to it.
Other than that, mastery is such a waste atm. Shud realy be buffd to some extent or remade.

[Nianif]

The people who complained about this should have been marched against a wall and shot.

Ahhh, yes... - waiting on a random orb until your pre-pot fades that one of our second stats do anything - was really great
T13 helped but was no good solution before.

So show me the wall and get your gun...

[Deleted]

Ahhh, yes... - waiting on a random orb until your pre-pot fades that one of our second stats do anything - was really great
T13 helped but was no good solution before.

So show me the wall and get your gun...

As you said the randomness is awkward but with t13 made it less of an hassle. if they changed a baseline talent that by popping sfiend you get orbs..then well....

in other news, void shifts works on apparitions

[Celentes]

We exchanged pretty much the most enjoyable rotation in the game for the most awkward one.

While I wouldn't dare call it the 'most' enjoyable rotation, it was really really good. I am completely clueless why they would just go and break all of it.

[Juicebox]

I like how shadow plays on beta. I just see some minor tweaks making it perfect to be honest.
People are afraid of change, but in this case the changes are good.

[Deleted]

I like how shadow plays on beta. I just see some minor tweaks making it perfect to be honest.
People are afraid of change, but in this case the changes are good.

It has nothing to do with being afraid of something. It´s purely about the fact that the spec feels really clumsy and awkward to play compared to fairly dynamic live version which has good ability flow and synergy between skills

[Juicebox]

It has nothing to do with being afraid of something. It´s purely about the fact that the spec feels really clumsy and awkward to play compared to fairly dynamic live version which has good ability flow and synergy between skills

I can understand you feel that way but I think it's because of of talents, not the actual play itself. Try it yourself.

[Kaesebrezen]

As you said the randomness is awkward but with t13 made it less of an hassle.

Less of hassle == non existing. At T13H Gear ES was a pretty boring mechanic, since you could guarantee a 100% uptime with just casting MB on CD.

So since ES and Evangelism are mechanics that didn't add anything to gameplay at T13, we can reduce our T13H gameplay down to: Reapply VT and DP, use MB on CD, else MF... Comparing that to MoP: Reapply VT and SW:P, use MB on CD, else MF, use DP when available. Not much difference...

You should get over ES. It was a flawed mechanic. It was frustrating at entrance raid gear levels due to it's RNG, while at the final raiding tier you didn't even run in danger of it ever dropping. It's gone because it either was frustrating or didn't add anything at all to the gameplay.
Let's continue with ES: It was only added because Shadow Orbs themself weren't worth it as a mastery. The sole purpose of Shadow Orbs was to achieve that you cast MB on cooldown (which was also achieved by buffing it's damage).

Shadow has always used the same concept since BC: 2 DoTs you have to reapply, MB on CD and else MF. Even ES didn't change it. MoP doesn't change it.

The mechanics that were removed (or synergies how some people like to call them...) were removed because they didn't add much (or anything) to gameplay:
- Evangelism. Once you stacked it, you could forget it.
- ES. Once it you had the buff, you could forget it. Unless the RNG god was not on your side or you were Mindsearing.
- Sin and Punishment. Wether you push a button every 4 minutes or 2 minutes, that's a VERY BIG addition...
- Pain and Suffering. Was only there to spread the damage out on more abilities. In the end you always kept your two DoTs to manually refresh.

In the end, all those mechanics (including Orb generation) overloaded MF with additional effects, yet none of them had any impact and when you use MF (use when nothing else available), MB(use on CD) and your DoTs. So you should all think again about wether the mechanics you miss really added something to gameplay.

[Deleted]

Less of hassle == non existing. At T13H Gear ES was a pretty boring mechanic, since you could guarantee a 100% uptime with just casting MB on CD.

So since ES and Evangelism are mechanics that didn't add anything to gameplay at T13, we can reduce our T13H gameplay down to: Reapply VT and DP, use MB on CD, else MF... Comparing that to MoP: Reapply VT and SW:P, use MB on CD, else MF, use DP when available. Not much difference...

You should get over ES. It was a flawed mechanic. It was frustrating at entrance raid gear levels due to it's RNG, while at the final raiding tier you didn't even run in danger of it ever dropping. It's gone because it either was frustrating or didn't add anything at all to the gameplay.
Let's continue with ES: It was only added because Shadow Orbs themself weren't worth it as a mastery. The sole purpose of Shadow Orbs was to achieve that you cast MB on cooldown (which was also achieved by buffing it's damage).

Shadow has always used the same concept since BC: 2 DoTs you have to reapply, MB on CD and else MF. Even ES didn't change it. MoP doesn't change it.

The mechanics that were removed (or synergies how some people like to call them...) were removed because they didn't add much (or anything) to gameplay:
- Evangelism. Once you stacked it, you could forget it.
- ES. Once it you had the buff, you could forget it. Unless the RNG god was not on your side or you were Mindsearing.
- Sin and Punishment. Wether you push a button every 4 minutes or 2 minutes, that's a VERY BIG addition...
- Pain and Suffering. Was only there to spread the damage out on more abilities. In the end you always kept your two DoTs to manually refresh.

You should all think again about wether the mechanics you miss really added something to gameplay.

Mind you I only answered to that in regards that it became less of a hassle, not debating if empowered shadow is a good mechanic. My focus on the beta now is how clunky the current sp dps flow is with FDCL when that talents become defacto required talent for max dps

[Celentes]

Less of hassle == non existing. At T13H Gear ES was a pretty boring mechanic, since you could guarantee a 100% uptime with just casting MB on CD.

So since ES and Evangelism are mechanics that didn't add anything to gameplay at T13, we can reduce our T13H gameplay down to: Reapply VT and DP, use MB on CD, else MF... Comparing that to MoP: Reapply VT and SW:P, use MB on CD, else MF, use DP when available. Not much difference...

You should get over ES. It was a flawed mechanic. It was frustrating at entrance raid gear levels due to it's RNG, while at the final raiding tier you didn't even run in danger of it ever dropping. It's gone because it either was frustrating or didn't add anything at all to the gameplay.
Let's continue with ES: It was only added because Shadow Orbs themself weren't worth it as a mastery. The sole purpose of Shadow Orbs was to achieve that you cast MB on cooldown (which was also achieved by buffing it's damage).

Shadow has always used the same concept since BC: 2 DoTs you have to reapply, MB on CD and else MF. Even ES didn't change it. MoP doesn't change it.

The mechanics that were removed (or synergies how some people like to call them...) were removed because they didn't add much (or anything) to gameplay:
- Evangelism. Once you stacked it, you could forget it.
- ES. Once it you had the buff, you could forget it. Unless the RNG god was not on your side or you were Mindsearing.
- Sin and Punishment. Wether you push a button every 4 minutes or 2 minutes, that's a VERY BIG addition...
- Pain and Suffering. Was only there to spread the damage out on more abilities. In the end you always kept your two DoTs to manually refresh.

In the end, all those mechanics (including Orb generation) overloaded MF with additional effects, yet none of them had any impact and when you use MF (use when nothing else available), MB(use on CD) and your DoTs. So you should all think again about wether the mechanics you miss really added something to gameplay.

It was fun to manage ES in t11 and t12. Subjective, idk. And it still wasn't 'get and forget' in t13 on various fights where you were aoeing/multidotting hard.
General note on such kind of logic - this game is easy. So easy any class can be explained like this. Should we just remove all buttons except for arcane blast and keep going like that?
They could make ES more dynamic, it was flawed to a point, but it was good. Evangelism was kind of meh, Sin and punishment was interesting, thousand times more interesting than mindbender or whatever reason they have removed it. Pain and suffering made multidotting management more interesting than a simple dot spam.
But in the end, while all of this had its flaws, may have been not 'very' interesting, or not 'very' involving, okay - why not change it to be fun and dynamic? Have they ran out of imagination? And even if so, what have they given back, just to compensate for the complete removal of those? Have they given anything remotely as good, not talking about actually interesting stuff, that even the pickiest person like you would find fun?
You may as well heal a headache with a guillotine.

[Flaubertlives]

It has nothing to do with being afraid of something. It´s purely about the fact that the spec feels really clumsy and awkward to play compared to fairly dynamic live version which has good ability flow and synergy between skills

Completely agree here.

I can understand you feel that way but I think it's because of of talents, not the actual play itself. Try it yourself.

I've tried it, played throughout all Beta, it's clunky. Someone recently described us as a bad ranged Ret Paladin, I feel this is accurate as things stand.

[Kaesebrezen]

Pain and suffering made multidotting management more interesting than a simple dot spam.

The simple dot spam required more input from you than keeping your standard gameplay of casting Mindflay while tabbing through targets.
P&S made multi-dotting easier as it is closer to the standard rotation, plus it provided more of a DPS gain in the gimmick fights where we were already dominating.

And it still wasn't 'get and forget' in t13 on various fights where you were aoeing/multidotting hard.

Multi-dotting with P&S made sure it wouldn't drop there. Yes, it could drop if you had to Mindsear. But those times are sparse.

Sin and punishment was interesting, thousand times more interesting than mindbender or whatever reason they have removed it

It was a simple CD reduction to Shadowfiend. That's the same effect Mindbender has.

why not change it to be fun and dynamic?

Mindbender is a cool looking squiddy that has a lower CD than Shadowfiend... See where i'm going with it? Now Shadowfiend not only has a lower CD, it also looks cooler!

I've tried it, played throughout all Beta, it's clunky

It's not clunky. It's the same thing it has always been.

BC: Reapply VT and SW:P, use MB on CD, use SW:Smiley on CD, use starshards every 30 sec, else MF.
LK: Reapply VT and DP, use MB on CD (until T10 buffed MF to much - which then resulted in a huge MB buff in cataclysm), else MF
Cata: Reapply VT and DP, use MB on CD, use SW:Smiley sub 25%, else MF
MoP: Reapply VT and SW:P, use MB on CD, use SW:Smiley sub 20%, use DP every ~30 sec, else MF.

If you're a LK or Cata shadowpriest than the thing you might find clunky is less Mindflaying and more dot refreshing (but that's a pretty low number still), if you're a BC shadowpriest, you should find it close to how shadow played back then.