Football Season 2012/2013

[Tomikadzi]

Nope there wasnt. A strike is a deliberate hit with the hand.

That what YOU want to see now. Fifa's rules don't mention whether strike must be delibrate or non-accidental.

[Deleted]

That what YOU want to see now. Fifa's rules don't mention whether strike must be delibrate or non-accidental.

Deliberate or Non-accidental are the same thing. A deliberate strike to the head is a red card end of. If there is a hand that touches a player in the build up then usually its nothing. TBH 99% of the delibearate strikes on to the face do not merit the reaction or should limit the ability to defend/carry on with normal play.

[Larath]

whats the tougher messures you want to see though, I can say that the test aren't all that easy to pass and besides the ref is just in a lose/lose situation no matter what he does someone thinks he's bad or maybe he's just having a bad day, you don't see say Messi or Ronaldo never playing again for their country if they have a bad game.

why is it that the refs are supposed to be godlike and not miss a single thing when the players aren't even trying to help them by diving and other things.

simply why is the ref asked to keep alot higher standard then any player ever comes close to while still not having anywhere near the praise and money they have.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but I can't help but feel your love for your team is making your opinions biased. I watched that very same game Friday and I thought the ref made pretty decent decisions, and was overall fine (not brilliant, but did the job fine).



He also has a funny shaped head.

Just sayin'



<3 Welbeck and <3 United.

Got nothing to do with my team, the ref was crap. Seen enough good, and bad refs to be able to say he was beyond awful. I think it was one of his first international games and to show that he wouldn't be phased by the home crowd he had a lean towards the visiting team. I think that he lost the plot at times, and wasso unwilling to be influenced by the crowd that he wouldn't give any decision no matter how blatant it was for the home team.

It would be interesting if UEFA or any other Football association would release rating of refereeing performance. In the English leagues, referees that do not "cut the mustard" do NOT officiate in the Premier League. Also any howlers by top officials tend to be punished by being awarded matches in the football league. This can lead to problems as players are used to a different lvl of of official. Such as a stupid amount of cards.

[Larath]

Lol, was it Ibrahamovic that scored or has he (finally) retired from international football?

We actually won 2-0 but I missed the last goal which was late on overtime by Markus Berg.

[Nerph-]

MyrddinGwyllt, now you're claiming the ref was favoring the away team, in this case Belgium, purely to show he wouldn't be influenced by the home crowd? Come on... surely you don't really believe that. Every post you make on the subject just makes me feel what you post is less and less credible :/

Anyway, on a side note, both United's top 2 signings of this season both injured :/ van Persie during his game tonight and Kagawa during training. The Dutch coach said it wasn't anything too serious and they took him off as a safety measure obviously, let's hope it isn't too serious, because with Rooney out for the next 3+ weeks, van Persie was filling his spot nicely... Kind of reminds me of people mentioning how injury prone van Persie is... well... only 3 matches in and he's already injured :P As for Kagawa he apparently felt something go in his back during training, got treatment for it but didn't want to take the risk of playing for Japan today.

[Deleted]

MyrddinGwyllt, now you're claiming the ref was favoring the away team, in this case Belgium, purely to show he wouldn't be influenced by the home crowd? Come on... surely you don't really believe that. Every post you make on the subject just makes me feel what you post is less and less credible :/

Anyway, on a side note, both United's top 2 signings of this season both injured :/ van Persie during his game tonight and Kagawa during training. The Dutch coach said it wasn't anything too serious and they took him off as a safety measure obviously, let's hope it isn't too serious, because with Rooney out for the next 3+ weeks, van Persie was filling his spot nicely... Kind of reminds me of people mentioning how injury prone van Persie is... well... only 3 matches in and he's already injured :P As for Kagawa he apparently felt something go in his back during training, got treatment for it but didn't want to take the risk of playing for Japan today.

No what I said was, the referee in his attempts to be impartial over did it. I believe he went out and decided he wasn't going to be influenced by the crowd. Not that it was a large crowd. Or a hostile one.
I personally do not believe that he came from a federation that has a high level home football league, and by high level I mean that of England, Spain, Germany, and Italy. Although every country can produce good officials they are few and far between.
I think that you are too focused on the result of that game, and are unable to see that I am complaining about the referee. Something that I have a right to do. I saw numerous incidents that went unpunished. Things that were in front of his field of vision and stuff that he waved away.
I have followed my team through every division in the English pyramid, I have seen complete and utter trash football, that has been allowed to escalate to a farce by incompetent and weak refereeing. To that of the overzealous letter of the law card maniac who sends off 4 players, and when your team gets a serious injury to another player. Enforces him to stay on the pitch by straddling the line.
What happens with all referees is much like players they have a game plan, an idea of how they want to let the game flow, the difference between a good and a bad ref is being able to identify and adjust with the game allowing it to flow. Being consistent with the decisions and preventing certain things getting out of hand.
Indeed sometimes we as fans get caught up in the moment, especially when you are at the event. It is different from TV. You see a lot more through replays and camera angles on telly, but you miss as much through a larger scope of vision. You miss reactions of players and coaches. Only the "key" moments are shown and sometimes the reaction is missed by the instant replay.
I can tell you now that the referee at that game was crap, the statistics back it up. A team with 10men with 47% of possession made 7 fouls, received 2 yellow cards and a sending off. Compared with 11 fouls had 2 booking. So the team that committed the majority of fouls is penalised less. Though this could mean they were nothing incidents, and merited no more.
It wasn't a battle of a game, but it was a niggly game and I don't think we got the rub of the green on any decision. Usually in a football match a decision goes against you, but it evens itself out.
Taking away from the dismissal, as this is something that even here many say wasn't and was a Red. Which is a talking point in itself. There were other poor decisions.
The incident beforehand where Fellaini should have received a yellow, the ref spoke to him about it. I believe that the referees decision not too book him, showed that he was prepared to allow challenges. So then the Welsh defender has no second thought about making that tackle which he receives a red card for.
Other than this incident the only other bad incident was when Bale knocked the ball behind the Belgian defence and was intentionally stopped. Which the player received a booking.

For me the it's a combination of these points that determine that I believe the ref had a bad game.
You keep going on about being impartial and not biased, but saying that you saw it on TV and must be right, and that you try to watch a game of football as a neutral is impossible when your side is involved. No matter how hard one tries.
I am not saying that the result may have been any different, I am simply stating that I believe that he got many key decisions incorrect. I also feel he went out with a plan not to be intimidated by the crowd and inadvertently leant towards the away team. It may have been that had these decisions gone our way that we would have lost by a greater margin.
For me I came away from a game with a sense of injustice and dissatisfaction. I was disappointed that we were not able to be able to give Belgium a good go, and that a campaign had got off to a bad start. Especially as 10 months before we were on a crest of a wave under Speed, looking to be really ready to achieve something.
To be honest it makes no difference now, we got absolutely tanked tonight 6-1. In typical Welsh fashion we have now completely imploded.

[Northern Goblin]

Referees in some countries are not paid and trained professionals, they are part time volunteers.

The difference between professional and amateur referees is all too obvious in many situations. Unfortunately FIFA won't take a stance on it, because for smaller Football Associations the cost of professionally trained referees is one expense too many.


That said, the referee tonight was card happy, he often is. He lacks discretion in his games and is exceptionally punitive with his judgements, sometimes over zealous.

But he's consistent, it's not a bias against any one team.

[Deleted]

whats the tougher messures you want to see though, I can say that the test aren't all that easy to pass and besides the ref is just in a lose/lose situation no matter what he does someone thinks he's bad or maybe he's just having a bad day, you don't see say Messi or Ronaldo never playing again for their country if they have a bad game.

why is it that the refs are supposed to be godlike and not miss a single thing when the players aren't even trying to help them by diving and other things.

simply why is the ref asked to keep alot higher standard then any player ever comes close to while still not having anywhere near the praise and money they have.

There was a big debate here years ago with match officials, and it seems to have quietended down. It was to do with proffesional refs. At the time I think Italy was the only country to have them, and Collina was seen by most to be the best ref in the world at the time. He was able to command a game of football as an official like no otherr. Especially when at the time the bigger clubs in England were able to manipulate decisions, or at least seen to manipulate decisions.

In 2001 or 2002 they went proffessional and now in England there is a set standard. Top refs seem to rise to the top, and at the moment there is an elite within the elite that take charge of the big matches. I think it is something that has helped grow the Premier league. Note that you still get some bad refereeing displays, its hust that they are far less frequent and if they are consistently bad they are dropped.

I am sure that if Ronaldo or Messi consistantly played badly for their respective nations then they themselves would find that they wouldn't be playing for their respective clubs/country.

Yes they don't get paid the salary or wage of players, but I think it is early doors for them in terms of salary/wages. I am sure that in the future that the better officilas will demand higher salaries just like players. I doubt you will see a Referee earn £200,000 a week tho. I think they get paid £60k-£70k a year in the UK, its appererance related.

[Larath]

There was a big debate here years ago with match officials, and it seems to have quietended down. It was to do with proffesional refs. At the time I think Italy was the only country to have them, and Collina was seen by most to be the best ref in the world at the time. He was able to command a game of football as an official like no otherr. Especially when at the time the bigger clubs in England were able to manipulate decisions, or at least seen to manipulate decisions.

In 2001 or 2002 they went proffessional and now in England there is a set standard. Top refs seem to rise to the top, and at the moment there is an elite within the elite that take charge of the big matches. I think it is something that has helped grow the Premier league. Note that you still get some bad refereeing displays, its hust that they are far less frequent and if they are consistently bad they are dropped.

I am sure that if Ronaldo or Messi consistantly played badly for their respective nations then they themselves would find that they wouldn't be playing for their respective clubs/country.

Yes they don't get paid the salary or wage of players, but I think it is early doors for them in terms of salary/wages. I am sure that in the future that the better officilas will demand higher salaries just like players. I doubt you will see a Referee earn £200,000 a week tho. I think they get paid £60k-£70k a year in the UK, its appererance related.

Indeed, isn't only the head ref thats a proffessional though the linesmen are still just amateurs, think I remember reading something about that like last year. Just take all the shit Howard Webb gets for being fergies own ref, and I think simply by making the refs able to live their life only being a ref their job could be improved alot, imagine if every footballer had to keep a job on the side.

[Nerph-]

I also feel he went out with a plan not to be intimidated by the crowd and inadvertently leant towards the away team. It may have been that had these decisions gone our way that we would have lost by a greater margin.

Alright, you make fair points but at the same time I don't agree with the bit of your post I've quoted. Every professional referee is trained to not be intimidated by the crowd, but I don't believe that means he inadvertently leant towards or favored the away team. To me it seems that part of 'Being a Referee 101' is knowing to ignore the boo's and hisses from the crowd but still be as fair to one team as to the other. Now I don't know this Swedish Referee personally, I haven't looked up his history, but I'd be very surprised if FIFA would let a (very) inexperienced referee referee a world cup qualifier match. As I said, its not like they're picked off the streets and asked to referee a game. These are important games, maybe more important than league games as we're talking about qualifiers for the biggest national football tournament in the world. I would be very surprised if this referee didn't have enough experience to referee an international match properly.

[Deleted]

Indeed, isn't only the head ref thats a proffessional though the linesmen are still just amateurs, think I remember reading something about that like last year. Just take all the shit Howard Webb gets for being fergies own ref, and I think simply by making the refs able to live their life only being a ref their job could be improved alot, imagine if every footballer had to keep a job on the side.

Well linesmen are now known as assistants, however they are not ametures but themselves referees. They are paid a different amount per apperance. As for reference to Webb. I have seen some games with him and he seems to allow a game to develope, whilst being able to clamp down on mister meaners. I think the reason Ferguson wants him for the big games is that he is able to manage a game under huge pressure and does not allways get influenced by the occasion. Something that all referees can get cayght up in. On the other hand without these clangers of decision making, there would be so little to talk about after matches.

For instance last weekend, Swansea v Sunderland was the first apperance of a Official. He missed two stonewall penalties, one for either side. In addition to pulling up every incident and not allowing the game to flow. This stop start played into the hands of Sunderland at times as Swansea tend to try and play afluid game moving the opposition. If that game had been officiated by Webb for instance then a lot of the incidents would have been overlooked with advantage being played. Also the penalties would have been awarded.

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 03:05 PM ----------

Alright, you make fair points but at the same time I don't agree with the bit of your post I've quoted. Every professional referee is trained to not be intimidated by the crowd, but I don't believe that means he inadvertently leant towards or favored the away team. To me it seems that part of 'Being a Referee 101' is knowing to ignore the boo's and hisses from the crowd but still be as fair to one team as to the other. Now I don't know this Swedish Referee personally, I haven't looked up his history, but I'd be very surprised if FIFA would let a (very) inexperienced referee referee a world cup qualifier match. As I said, its not like they're picked off the streets and asked to referee a game. These are important games, maybe more important than league games as we're talking about qualifiers for the biggest national football tournament in the world. I would be very surprised if this referee didn't have enough experience to referee an international match properly.

Been a fifa ref since 2003, and is professional. Though its extreamly naive to think that an occasion cannot sway any individual player/manager/coach/official.

[Nerph-]

Been a fifa ref since 2003, and is professional. Though its extreamly naive to think that an occasion cannot sway any individual player/manager/coach/official.

The fact he's been a referee for 9 years would give me the benefit of the doubt that he did his best to referee the game fairly. I don't think it's naive to think this. Mostly when a referee is doing it, it is very clear he is doing it, and seeing you do think he did and I don't, and it is not because I'm half Belgian, I watched the full match, maybe not live from the stadium like you but I saw all tackles and fouls, and their replays, in my opinion he was consequent and fair to both teams. The fact that news sites (and I'm talking about the BBC, ESPN, Sky Sports, "trustworthy" reporting) don't even really seem to mention 'poor refereeing' or 'referee clearly favoring one team' really just strengthens my opinion that you feel the way you do because you're a Wales supporter.

As I said, I'm not a person that would sit here and lie through my teeth to defend my national team, or the referee (and just to be clear, I'm not insinuating that you are doing this). If I'd seen he was favoring Belgium, I'd be agreeing with you 100%.

On a side note, you probably saw this as you were in the stadium, the few Belgian fans that traveled to Cardiff for the match were displaying a banner in tribute of Gary Speed. It made me feel slightly proud of my nations supporters that they go to a foreign country to watch a game and pay tribute to the opposing teams former Manager.

http://i.imgur.com/EjvN1.jpg if you didn't see it.

However I was really disappointed yesterday, when the Croatian national anthem was being played and all the Belgian fans were booing and hissing. Talk about immaturity... I'm glad I wasn't there as I'd have been very embarrassed.

[Northern Goblin]

However I was really disappointed yesterday, when the Croatian national anthem was being played and all the Belgian fans were booing and hissing. Talk about immaturity... I'm glad I wasn't there as I'd have been very embarrassed.

I absolutely fucking hate it when that happens, there's no nice way of putting this, but "fans" who do that should be ejected. I don't care who England are playing, even if it's Germany or Argentina, there is no reason to do it. It's disrespectful and it's a mentality that should have died out of football decades ago.

I wish FIFA would stamp down hard on that, because it's embarrassing that it's still an issue in this day and age.

[Larath]

Well linesmen are now known as assistants, however they are not ametures but themselves referees. They are paid a different amount per apperance. As for reference to Webb. I have seen some games with him and he seems to allow a game to develope, whilst being able to clamp down on mister meaners. I think the reason Ferguson wants him for the big games is that he is able to manage a game under huge pressure and does not allways get influenced by the occasion. Something that all referees can get cayght up in. On the other hand without these clangers of decision making, there would be so little to talk about after matches.

For instance last weekend, Swansea v Sunderland was the first apperance of a Official. He missed two stonewall penalties, one for either side. In addition to pulling up every incident and not allowing the game to flow. This stop start played into the hands of Sunderland at times as Swansea tend to try and play afluid game moving the opposition. If that game had been officiated by Webb for instance then a lot of the incidents would have been overlooked with advantage being played. Also the penalties would have been awarded.

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 03:05 PM ----------



Been a fifa ref since 2003, and is professional. Though its extreamly naive to think that an occasion cannot sway any individual player/manager/coach/official.

That part about it being his first game, well I'd say Swansea - Sunderland is a very good game to start your career as a ref in the premier league since its not a very high profile match and no "big" clubs are involved in it, I mean they gotta get their games somewhere.

[Nerph-]

I absolutely fucking hate it when that happens, there's no nice way of putting this, but "fans" who do that should be ejected. I don't care who England are playing, even if it's Germany or Argentina, there is no reason to do it. It's disrespectful and it's a mentality that should have died out of football decades ago.

I wish FIFA would stamp down hard on that, because it's embarrassing that it's still an issue in this day and age.

Aye, couldn't agree more, but you literally can't ban/eject the ones doing it as you have no idea who is doing it and who isn't. I mean you can see on cameras which fans are clearly booing, but how do you get to them in such a huge crowd, and you can't get to them all. I mean the stadium can hold 40,000+ people, it was sold out yesterday and 39,000 of them were Belgian supporters. Hard to individually ban the ones in that 39,000. In other words, the only way to punish it is to ban all fans from an upcoming home game, or a few games, which also punishes the fans who aren't complete twats. Then again, maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing, as the ones who get punished/banned and didn't boo or hiss, will not tolerate it any more and will complain and "maybe" it will stop the ones doing it, from doing it... That's a big maybe though.

If it was my decision, the next Belgian home match would not be allowed to have any Belgian supporters present, yeah it would suck for the Belgian team not having any supporters in the stadium, but if people are going to act like that, then harsh sanctions should be taken.

[koodledrum]

I absolutely fucking hate it when that happens, there's no nice way of putting this, but "fans" who do that should be ejected. I don't care who England are playing, even if it's Germany or Argentina, there is no reason to do it. It's disrespectful and it's a mentality that should have died out of football decades ago.

I wish FIFA would stamp down hard on that, because it's embarrassing that it's still an issue in this day and age.

The worst I've ever seen for this are the Tartan Army, every time Scotland play either Northern Ireland or England it gets booed, as do Liechtenstein as their anthem is to the tune of God Save The Queen. Now I won't pull punches, I fucking hate God Save The Queen (singing a song which glorifies slaughtering Scots really gets my back up) unless it's played by Brian May it puts my back right up, but rather than boo it I turn my back on it - an adequate show of displeasure I feel.

Scotland were dire again yesterday, no real surprise, but then again as previously stated this pleases me greatly as I actually want them (unless they're playing England - sorry chaps) to get humped.

Finally and I'm not even sure this is the right place to talk about it, about damned time they came out with the truth about Hillsborough - the weasel of a journalist who was in charge of The Sun has "apollogised" as has the government, naturally said apollogy from The Sun has been reacted to angrily by the families & their journalists kicked out of the press conference today. Kinda sad it's taken over 20 years for the truth to be told of that day and I hope Liverpool fans can go to bed tonight feeling that a sense of justice can now start to be sought.

[Northern Goblin]

God Save the Queen shouldn't even be played as it's not the English national anthem, but I digress.

I've no problems with discussion on Hillsborough as long as it remains civil, I would guess that we've several Liverpool fans who want to get this off their chest, I know it's something Devourer had a strong affinity for being from the city itself.

It's sad that it's taken this long but finally the 96 are getting the justice they deserve.

[Deleted]

The fact he's been a referee for 9 years would give me the benefit of the doubt that he did his best to referee the game fairly. I don't think it's naive to think this. Mostly when a referee is doing it, it is very clear he is doing it, and seeing you do think he did and I don't, and it is not because I'm half Belgian, I watched the full match, maybe not live from the stadium like you but I saw all tackles and fouls, and their replays, in my opinion he was consequent and fair to both teams. The fact that news sites (and I'm talking about the BBC, ESPN, Sky Sports, "trustworthy" reporting) don't even really seem to mention 'poor refereeing' or 'referee clearly favoring one team' really just strengthens my opinion that you feel the way you do because you're a Wales supporter.

As I said, I'm not a person that would sit here and lie through my teeth to defend my national team, or the referee (and just to be clear, I'm not insinuating that you are doing this). If I'd seen he was favoring Belgium, I'd be agreeing with you 100%.

On a side note, you probably saw this as you were in the stadium, the few Belgian fans that traveled to Cardiff for the match were displaying a banner in tribute of Gary Speed. It made me feel slightly proud of my nations supporters that they go to a foreign country to watch a game and pay tribute to the opposing teams former Manager.

http://i.imgur.com/EjvN1.jpg if you didn't see it.

However I was really disappointed yesterday, when the Croatian national anthem was being played and all the Belgian fans were booing and hissing. Talk about immaturity... I'm glad I wasn't there as I'd have been very embarrassed.

I saw it, the Belgian fans were to their credit superb. I have been away following Wales in the past and been in away crowds like that. It's really something special.

[Nerph-]

I saw it, the Belgian fans were to their credit superb. I have been away following Wales in the past and been in away crowds like that. It's really something special.

It's a pity only the ones traveling to away games (the Belgian fans, I mean) are alright. As I said I felt ashamed to be Belgian during Croatia's anthem, why nothing is done about it I don't know, even the Belgian commentators were like 'come on guys, this is ridiculous'.