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  1. #81
    Can't wait to play my windwalker!

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsayyar View Post
    Then it becomes a mandatory glyph, which goes against they're design for what Glyphs are.
    Granted, it wouldn't be in PvP, though in PvE - Mandatory.
    I'd have to disagree with that motion (and you should too, as you took it upon yourself to defend FoF tooth and nail at its current form). I don't particularly agree with the idea of a Glyph for using it on the move either, however given a penalty wouldn't violate what Glyphs are. A lot of times, Glyphs add convenience and that convenience will cost you a Glyph slot, which as this guide points out..are a better option.

    The idea, again probably not the direction to go, is atleast warranted.

    Edit: Can't spell gud.
    Last edited by Xavera; 2012-09-10 at 10:12 PM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Xavera View Post
    I'd have to disagree with that motion (and you should too, as you took it upon yourself to defend FoF tooth and nail at its current form). I don't particularly agree with the idea of a Glyph for using it on the move either, however given a penalty wouldn't violate what Glyphs are. A lot of times, Glyphs add convenience and that convenience will cost you a Glyph slot, which as this guide points out..are a better option.

    The idea, again probably not the direction to go, is atleast warranted.
    I guess my sentence didn't represent how I felt, apologies.

    You're very right, I am defending FoF tooth and nail as I see it as perfectly viable design. The skill factor of the ability is using it when you know you will hit every hit, not drop de-buffs and have your energy low. With the glyph, it would negate one of those three factors, which I see as bad.

    With your comment that it would be convenience, I think; It would be convenience for everyone. Sure, there are some Glyphs that are just pure good (Combustion, Heroic Leap etc) but this would be one of those things that would make it great for PvE and OP in PvP. Moveable stun while channelling? OP.

    Sadly, that's why a Glyph like this couldn't happen and shouldn't happen. It keeps the skill factor of the ability higher than average and keeps it balanced in PvP.

  4. #84
    Great guild, will help lots!

  5. #85
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Has this been posted yet?

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...41832158453760

    Could you please talk to the ww monks regarding FoF rooting us in a raid setting?
    GC: - Not sure what there is to say. We like it. Some forum posters don't.
    That's that.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Has this been posted yet?

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...41832158453760



    That's that.
    Well, that's it, WW are officially going to suck at least for T14. Good thing I'm main spec healer.

  7. #87
    Stood in the Fire Ujio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Well, that's it, WW are officially going to suck at least for T14. Good thing I'm main spec healer.
    It's not going to be that bad. Its just a quality of life thing. Would it be better if you didn't get rooted? Sure. Is it the end of the world because you do? No.
    "You’ve shown great conviction. Strength. Courage. All noble qualities. I should have killed you long ago."

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Ujio View Post
    It's not going to be that bad. Its just a quality of life thing. Would it be better if you didn't get rooted? Sure. Is it the end of the world because you do? No.
    Exactly the point I have been making for the past posts, where I have been an annoying tool about it ^_^

    The ability does not kill off the spec by any means and keep a skill cap there for good players to be better than the bad.
    Last edited by Alsayyar; 2012-09-13 at 11:54 AM. Reason: I spell gud

  9. #89
    Well, that's it, WW are officially going to suck at least for T14. Good thing I'm main spec healer.
    Or rather, WW will be fine, but people who don't like FoF as is won't play it.

  10. #90
    Or will play it and just not use FoF! or just dislike playing it! People have options!

  11. #91
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Ran into a bit of a FoF firstworldproblem yesterday on the Gara'jal 25H beta test: my energy regen during bloodlust was so high that i was unable to use FoF without getting energy capped (so I skipped using it till bloodlust faded).

    (also managed to get a 2nd heroic fist weapon from him )

  12. #92
    Doesn't FoF's damage warrant using it during Bloodlust, even at the risk of energy capping ? Although I can see your point, more energy > more chi > more BoK instead of a single FoF ... makes sense. Could use some napkin maths but I suck at it

  13. #93
    Or will play it and just not use FoF! or just dislike playing it! People have options!
    It seems to me like leaving FoF out will sort of be like leaving, say, Ferocious Bite out of the Feral rotation. Not really an option if you want maximum DPS. I wonder how big of an issue the FoF thing will be. Xuen doesn't benefit from Heroism anymore? Or does he update dynamically for WW? In 40 seconds, if you pop FoF just before Herolust, you can choose to either miss out on either one FoF or let your energy cap. I wonder which way the math will go. It seems to me like it would be better to just skip one FoF.

  14. #94
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    It seems to me like leaving FoF out will sort of be like leaving, say, Ferocious Bite out of the Feral rotation. Not really an option if you want maximum DPS. I wonder how big of an issue the FoF thing will be. Xuen doesn't benefit from Heroism anymore? Or does he update dynamically for WW? In 40 seconds, if you pop FoF just before Herolust, you can choose to either miss out on either one FoF or let your energy cap. I wonder which way the math will go. It seems to me like it would be better to just skip one FoF.
    It was definitely better to leave out FoF at an earlier stage in the beta. But since they buffed it, yeah we can't really do that anymore and I thought it was shame I had to skip it before. But the thing is, I don't mind it being channeled but I do mind that we can't move while doing it, they sorted the Warriors out so I'm not sure what there is to like about it from Ghostcrawlers perspective when they sorted out other classes that had channeling/abilities that worked in a similar fashion.

  15. #95
    I'm pretty sure they must have liked all of their previous "obvious" mistakes in the past too, at some point, thought it was a cool idea, an interesting way to add some skill checks on the class (easy to learn, hard to master). All until it becomes blatantly obvious that people don't like it and they change/fix the ability (usually an xpac later) and post about how their wonderful idea went wrong for whatever reason, they didn't see it coming, blah blah, same old.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Ran into a bit of a FoF firstworldproblem yesterday on the Gara'jal 25H beta test: my energy regen during bloodlust was so high that i was unable to use FoF without getting energy capped (so I skipped using it till bloodlust faded).

    (also managed to get a 2nd heroic fist weapon from him )
    This is worth digging into.

  17. #97
    Hi ! 1st, Thx for ur thread. Very interesting.

    I was wondering :

    DW:
    mhdps: 9.53
    ohdps: 4.89
    agi: 3.47
    hit: 2.59
    haste: 1.73
    exp 1.65
    crit: 1.52
    str: 1.27
    ap: 1.23
    mastery: 0.94
    hit>7.5%: 0.85
    Are u 100% sure about "Haste > Expertise" ?! I tought Hit 'd be equal to expertise and both better to Haste until we reach 7.5%.


    ThX for your answer

  18. #98
    I'm pretty sure they must have liked all of their previous "obvious" mistakes in the past too, at some point, thought it was a cool idea, an interesting way to add some skill checks on the class (easy to learn, hard to master). All until it becomes blatantly obvious that people don't like it and they change/fix the ability (usually an xpac later) and post about how their wonderful idea went wrong for whatever reason, they didn't see it coming, blah blah, same old.
    Imagine for a second you're in on the first Windwalker developer meeting. There's two questions they have to answer:

    1 - How do we make this spec able to do its job - melee DPS.

    2 - How do we make this spec different from all other melee.

    These two things are often at odds: number 1 tends to force the devs to make things more similar, while number 2 forces them to make things that are different from what other classes already have. As players, particularly those interested in competitive endgame, we're much more interested in number 1. But the devs have to balance number 1 and number 2 in order to keep the game interesting. Players might disagree, but over time, if a Monk was just a Warrior or a Rogue in a different class color and slightly different resource, you would get bored with it. Personally, I feel the Warrior is the best melee spec in the game - very few downsides...and I am completely bored with it. I've got it all figured out, more or less, and there's little for me in the class anymore. Even if personally you wouldn't be bored with it, the devs have to consider the good of the playerbase as a whole (even when the most vocal members are against their decisions) - remember, WOW is not a restaurant, and we are not ordering cheeseburgers.

    I'm honestly excited to try and find places in fights to use FoF properly. Will it be harder than playing my warrior? Probably, certainly at least at the start. But I had to master Rage so I could get lots of HS attacks in under CS too.

    Also, don't pin your hat on them removing FoF. Its far more likely they'll stick with it. You get a feel for mechanics they feel as "defining" and mechanics they aren't really attached to. A mechanic that is defining is something they're likely going to stick with, and if you don't like it, then that's probably not the class for you. If you don't like combo points, Rogues aren't going to be your style. From the blue posts we've seen, I think FoF is one of those "defining" mechanics. The better bet is FoF is always going to be part of playing WW. Either a) roll something else, or b) come to terms with FoF.

    I quit my Mage because I knew Combustion was always going to be a part of playing Mage (and every time Fire came out on top of the meters, I'd have to deal with that).

    My Priest is an alt now because I know Chakra and POH will always be a part of healing as a Priest (that, and Shadow's changes are meh for me - I could take em or leave em but I'm not particularly excited).

    Maybe FoF turns out to be a dealbreaker for me, or some of the issues with BM (I'll be tanking on my Monk with WW offspec). But I've got 7 other 85s, at least I'll have something to fall back on.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-09-14 at 10:27 PM.

  19. #99
    Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty happy with what's being done with the Monk WW spec. Sure, it's not perfect, but that's what betas are for. At least that's what they're supposed to be for. Thing is, my trust in Blizzard's ability to make things "right", even after MoP launch, is virtually non-existent.

    Must be from playing as a Ret since TBC, I'm used to them covering their eyes/ears saying "everything's fine, please move along" and then when the next xpac comes suddenly what all the "intelligent" posters were saying becomes true. Witnessed it each time.

    You get a feel for mechanics they feel as "defining" and mechanics they aren't really attached to.
    Ret Mastery was such an ability back in Cata beta, something they really insisted on, while at the same time being reported as utter crap by the community. When Cata launched, the "problem" was ignored or tossed aside, and then suddenly a few weeks later when Rets were cutting their wrists on Live, the spec got buffed big time and Mastery got changed to a passive damage bonus. They can be dead set on an ability being "fine" as is, it doesn't mean they won't change it (not delete it) if enough people bicker about it. They've done so in the past, and I still count on it here (maybe in 5.1, or even as a tier set bonus that would later become baseline, who knows). The best case scenario would be if the majority of WW logs showed a really low FoF count, or almost none. The "defining" skill, that you receive at level 10 as signature spell, being ignored in a raid scenario, would be a major problem, that they couldn't deny anymore. Won't happen, but one can dream

    Anyway, I've already come to terms regarding FoF. They want it to be an important part of our arsenal, so it won't go away anytime soon. And I kind of like the ability in itself : a way to regain energy when it's low and restart a "cycle". What I regret is the root part, I don't see the point, it's really punishing, especially since Monks don't really have their niche except mobility/target swapping.
    Last edited by Alviarin; 2012-09-14 at 11:13 PM.

  20. #100
    Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty happy with what's being done with the Monk WW spec. Sure, it's not perfect, but that's what betas are for. At least that's what they're supposed to be for. Thing is, my trust in Blizzard's ability to make things "right", even after MoP launch, is virtually non-existent.
    The logical failure here is that the player and the devs goals are the same, or that the goal is perfection. What is perfection? Today, maybe Charge is a big advantage, but tomorrow the same ability may become a liability (just ask PVP Druids what it feels like to have everyone be given what was once your strength). The point I was trying to make about the dev meeting is that, for the sake of being different, they're going to put in some abilities that may not feel "right" to us. They may be on the fence about the ability, or they may actually be divided about the ability (that image of a knockdown brawl in GC's office over long CDs and raid wipes...) but they'll put it in, despite forum complaints, for the sake of trying something that hasn't been done before. The devs have long been all about "wait and see". Also, the player's idea of broken (often=I don't like it) doesn't always jive with the dev's (if used correctly, does this ability do what its supposed to, and does the spec as a whole perform well in the hands of capable players?) If it truly is SO TERRIBLE that raids stop taking WWs, Blizzard will step in.

    What I regret is the root part, I don't see the point, it's really punishing, especially since Monks don't really have their niche except mobility/target swapping.
    Yes, this bothers me too, but also how we have to line up so much in order to make it work. But I think the root is the primary point of the ability: that's what makes it different. If they change anything, I'll bet it'll be in the resource/setup - energizing brew not playing nice, shorten the channel time, or losing your tiger palm buff, etc, etc, rather than mess with the root.

    I feel that the cleave talk masks an interesting issue: I feel Rogue's and Warrior's cleaving ability (and to a lesser extent, DKs) makes them too good versus all the other melee. As a RL, I already feel really pressured not to bring too many melee to progression, and Blade Flurry and Sweeping Strikes really exacerbate the issue and push the healer" melee specs (Ret, Enh, Feral, and WW) out of the lineup a bit.

    That said, I'd written off Enh and Ret before, but I've seen good players come in and do amazing stuff with those specs. I think/hope unless you are at the absolute bleeding edge, as long as you're good you can play just about whatever you want (within reason) and still be competitive.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-09-15 at 12:03 AM.

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