Why do HC raiding guilds say 'no' to females?

[Deleted]

It's not uncommon for people to need a way to get in touch with you, if you are offline. For example, if your power went out and you couldn't log on, your internet was down, you forgot your raid schedule and were out partying, etc

If i forgot my raid schedule and was out partying I sure as fuck wouldn't want some nerd who wants me to come kill an imaginary dragon calling me up and berating me.

[Shadylol]

No it isn't the same thing.

And just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be. Those women don't deserve to be blamed and have all this crap thrown on them because guys can't stop themselves from acting like giant asses (which is a total bullshit excuse - of course they can stop themselves, they just cbf when there's someone else to conveniantly blame). The responsibility should be with the person actually causing the drama.

But removing women from the situation effectively solves the problem

[Windfury]

But removing women from the situation effectively solves the problem

How does it solve the fact that some of your guild members are childish assholes who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions exactly? That would be a much larger problem than the fact that one of your guild members is female imo.

Regardless as above just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good thing to do or the right thing to do. Those women don't deserve to be blamed, victimised, and discriminated against because of someone else's shit.

[Kashim]

It's possible that they want to avoid drama due to previous experiences.
It's a problem you at least used to hear about now and then, that some guys had a soft spot for girls. And when of those guys is an officer the girl can pull strings.
Those kind of experiences can be pretty horrible to have so it's just a countermeasure to prevent it from happening again. Even if they are generalizing with the rule.

If you get an attention freak male, he's usually dropped pretty easily. Nobody cares.
If you have an attention freak female who has a cute voice (posting a RL pic on their guild forums that's cute too helps), is not always so simply dropped. "Gotta keep the pretty girl around.". You won't hear anyone say that of course, but it can be a real source of drama material.


Personally I hate the thought of hanging out with a sausage fest all the time. I consider myself to be lucky to have raided with guilds that had a few women in them. Just about all of them were really good players too.

[Shadylol]

How does it solve the fact that some of your guild members are childish assholes who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions exactly? That would be a much larger problem than the fact that one of your guild members is female imo.

Regardless as above just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good thing to do or the right thing to do. Those women don't deserve to be blamed, victimised, and discriminated against because of someone else's shit.

It solves the problem by removing the chance of it occuring. A decent analogy would be to say that the people in a raid team are a pile of wood sticks or logs, the potential drama of WoW is fuel covering those logs, and women are matches. If you simply remove all matches, it's much harder for those logs to light on fire. Sure, it could happen by something else too, but the chances are lower

And it's not about what anyone "deserve"s. Life isn't fair

[xtramuscle]

In my experience, women play healers, and whilst there are some very capable females out there, alot arn't as good as they think, can't take constructive criticism and feel they are hounded in a mostly male population.

I don't know where you're from, or what class you play, but we consider all applicants

http://bovine-intervention.wowstead.com/

[Shadylol]

In my experience, women play healers, and whilst there are some very capable females out there, alot arn't as good as they think, can't take constructive criticism and feel they are hounded in a mostly male population.

This is true a lot of the time as well, but I've met a lot of people on WoW, many of them were girls, and some of them were actually really good. I wouldn't see the logic in denying all applications from women, solely based on the fact that a lot of women are bad at the game, but I do understand the reasoning behind a no girls allowed policy, due to drama concerns and preventing that

[Deleted]

No it isn't the same thing.

And just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be. Those women don't deserve to be blamed and have all this crap thrown on them because guys can't stop themselves from acting like giant asses (which is a total bullshit excuse - of course they can stop themselves, they just cbf when there's someone else to conveniantly blame). The responsibility should be with the person actually causing the drama.

Well it will jszt have been bad experiences with female players.

I never was or am in a guild that didn't have female raiders, but i know that it causes drama. Especially when there relationships like girl friend of the leader.

But honestly, even those girls i know simply didn'T do good at dpsing. I remeber a rogue female that was always far worse than the other rpgue (easily 10 places in dps ranking, the first one being top and the second one at the bottom). EVERY male member would've been kicked out of the raid (not the guild) - except she wasn't. Women always get special treatment.

I suspect this had a lot to do with some bad things happening in this raids. I already heard about drama like the girl friend of the guild leader has been destroying a guild by demanding a raid spot, kicking people she didn't like - and he did it.

You could say the guild leader was silly to do so - but in the end, if those things happen, you cannot blame people for being very sceptical. Those guilds aren't normal.

But to be honest, it's the first time i heard about guilds not recruting girls at all.

[Shadylol]

Hardcore guilds with mature guys are perfectly fine with recruiting girls/women. Immature, adolescent boys will no doubt react strongly to a female because they're simply at the age where they're starting to notice that the opposite sex can be fun. If I was a man and I had a raiding roster, then I'd rather kick players like that than exclude potentially great raiders because of their gender.


I shudder when I see some of the sexist, childish comments made in this thread by guys. They seem to think that women are of a different species or something, claiming we like drama, cause drama or try to take advantage because of our sex as if this was a trademark for all women. Pathetic, really.

Does this mean that no male gamers cause drama, or are bad players? Going by ratio I'd say there's more of them than female gamers fitting these labels.

Oh, and regarding the guild at hand...I wouldn't join it for one single boss encounter even if they paid me 500k gold, since I can't imagine them being nice people to raid with when they sport that kind of attitude, so if they want to turn female players down just because of their sex, it's their problem. They belong to the gender that can call a woman a whore, and then still do anything to sleep with her. How's that for intellectual?

I see threads like this, and want to chime in with how I know girls who are good at WoW, but then I see a woman with your attitude, and I know deep down that the people who go out of their way to exclude women are right, half the time

You took this and turned it into a "sexist" thing already, proving the point that women just have more ways, and more chance to cause drama

[Windfury]

I never was or am in a guild that didn't have female raiders, but i know that it causes drama. Especially when there relationships like girl friend of the leader.

But honestly, even those girls i know simply didn'T do good at dpsing. I remeber a rogue female that was always far worse than the other rpgue (easily 10 places in dps ranking, the first one being top and the second one at the bottom). EVERY male member would've been kicked out of the raid (not the guild) - except she wasn't. Women always get special treatment.

Lol so you have absolutely no experience playing with women, but you've heard people talk crap, and since that backs up your own shitty stereotypes you're just going to believe it. Nie. Clearly it's the women who are the problem, not you amirite?

Also fwiw I played as melee DPS in a top 20 guild from Hyjal through to HLK, I know several other female players who did the same (plus plenty more who played other roles in raid). I assure you were were all routinely ranking in our classes and specs, and we all earned our raid spots. I assure you there are plenty of women out there playing in the really good guilds because they're generally better at prioritising performance and they control the stupid shit better. Just becasuse they didn't get your ok on it and don't advertise because of moronic shit like what is in this thread does not mean they aren't there. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't be able to come close to any player at that level in terms of skill. So seriously all women are bad? Wtf is wrong with you? Most players are bad. You're probably bad. What does that have to do with gender?

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 12:49 PM ----------

It solves the problem by removing the chance of it occuring. A decent analogy would be to say that the people in a raid team are a pile of wood sticks or logs, the potential drama of WoW is fuel covering those logs, and women are matches. If you simply remove all matches, it's much harder for those logs to light on fire. Sure, it could happen by something else too, but the chances are lower

And it's not about what anyone "deserve"s. Life isn't fair

But the problem isn't the woman. It's the fact that the raiders are selfish, immature brats who think they're never responsible and that they're owed every single thing that they want and cause drama and blame other people when they don't get it. If they're not being selfish immature jerks about women, they're going to be selfish immature jerks about loot, or about taking responsibility for wipes, or any of the other things they need to suck up if they want to raid. Getting rid of the peron they're blaming is just going to transfer their bullshit to something else, so your problem isn't solved at all.

No life isn't fair. But why make it less fair than it has to be for absolutely no gain whatsoever? How is that helping anyone at all? It's not even slightly rational.

[Deleted]

Most of the time it works fine.

But there are some cases where females create drama, either because they're drama-queens and relish attention or because dudes act stupid around them.

In either case, if a guild has had some problematic experiences with female players in the past I think it's perfectly legitimate for them to exclude them in the future. Their guild, their rules.

I really don't see a difference between an age-limit and a sex-limit. Essentially they're the same.

[Windfury]

Most of the time it works fine.

But there are some cases where females create drama... because dudes act stupid around them.

So why isn't it the dude's fault? Why shouldn't they be held responsible for their behaviour if it's what's causing the problem?

[Shadylol]

But the problem isn't the woman. It's the fact that the raiders are selfish, immature brats who think they're never responsible and that they're owed every single thing that they want and cause drama and blame other people when they don't get it. If they're not being selfish immature jerks about women, they're going to be selfish immature jerks about loot, or about taking responsibility for wipes, or any of the other things they need to suck up if they want to raid. Getting rid of the peron they're blaming is just going to transfer their bullshit to something else, so your problem isn't solved at all.

No life isn't fair. But why make it less fair than it has to be for absolutely no gain whatsoever? How is that helping anyone at all? It's not even slightly rational.

No, the problem isn't the women, it's sexually frustrated, and/or socially awkward men. Regardless, you can prevent the problem by just not having women around

That is, of course a broad statement, as there are in fact plenty of women on WoW who are horribly irritating attention seekers, sexists, etc

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 09:06 AM ----------

So why isn't it the dude's fault? Why shouldn't they be held responsible for their behaviour if it's what's causing the problem?

Path of least resistance

[Deleted]

So why isn't it the dude's fault? Why shouldn't they be held responsible for their behaviour if it's what's causing the problem?

Because excluding all dudes isn't a viable option.

Of course it's not fair, and ideally they'd remove the cause rather than address the symptoms. But there's countless reasons why that might not work.


Either way, excluding females is in no way different than excluding under-21s. It might not be fair to each individual, but if it helps the guild, fine. Not everybody can afford a 4 weeks recruitment phase where you gain some insight into somebody's personality.

[Windfury]

No, the problem isn't the women, it's sexually frustrated, and/or socially awkward men. Regardless, you can prevent the problem by just not having women around

But it's not actually preventing the problem, it's only really preventing one way for those losers to express their crap, but they just focus it on something else when there's no convenient woman to blame. I'm sure loot drama has killed far, far more raids than anything else, and it all stems from the same crappy entitled attitude as all this blaming does.

That is, of course a broad statement, as there are in fact plenty of women on WoW who are horribly irritating attention seekers, sexists, etc

You mean people right? Judging from this thread I think we can certainly say that there are plenty of men who are horribly irritating attention seeking sexists. So I'm not sure why you're feeling the need to single women out again for that.

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 01:13 PM ----------

Because excluding all dudes isn't a viable option.

Of course it's not fair, and ideally they'd remove the cause rather than address the symptoms. But there's countless reasons why that might not work... It might not be fair to each individual, but if it helps the guild, fine. Not everybody can afford a 4 weeks recruitment phase where you gain some insight into somebody's personality.

But it isn't all dudes who can't control themselves. It's some that are making it shitty for everyone else.

You haven't convinced me as to why inidividuals should not have to take responsibility for their own actions. Why would you want people like that in your raid anyway tbh? Excluding the woman is just going to cause them to shift their crappy, entitled behaviour to something else, these are the dudes that cause loot dramna, that won't take responsibility for wipes etc etc, it all stems from the same attitude problem. Keeping them around when you know they're like that isn't doing the guild any favours and excluding the female players to protect those assholes from themselves for a little while longer is costing the raid other players who may well be better for the raid.

[Shadylol]

But it's not actually preventing the problem, it's only really preventing one way for those losers to express their crap, but they just focus it on something else when there's no convenient woman to blame. I'm sure loot drama has killed far, far more raids than anything else, and it all stems from the same crappy entitled attitude as all this blaming does.



You mean people right? Judging from this thread I think we can certainly say that there are plenty of men who are horribly irritating attention seeking sexists. So I'm not sure why you're feeling the need to single women out again for that.

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 01:13 PM ----------



But it isn't all dudes who can't control themselves. It's some that are making it shitty for everyone else.

You haven't convinced me as to why inidividuals should not have to take responsibility for their own actions. Why would you want people like that in your raid anyway tbh? Excluding the woman is just going to cause them to shift their crappy, entitled behaviour to something else, these are the dudes that cause loot dramna, that won't take responsibility for wipes etc etc, it all stems from the same attitude problem. Keeping them around when you know they're like that isn't doing the guild any favours and excluding the female players to protect those assholes from themselves for a little while longer is costing the raid other players who may well be better for the raid.

We've already been over this

Life isn't fair

[Deleted]

Our guild/raid leader is a girl i dont see how people can be so sexist,i mean i bet its just the guild leader from the guild the OP quoted is one of those butthurt dweller's who cant talk to girls and thus doesnt want them in the voice chat client because he might not be able to lead a raid. I dont know it just seems like a stupid reason,people should get the fuck over these stereotypes that all good gamers are dudes its just wrong and its discrimination.

[Windfury]

We've already been over this

Life isn't fair

Yes we have. And you still haven't provided a justification as to why you would make things more unfair for absolutely no reason or gain. It's completely irrational. I'm happy to wait.

[Shadylol]

Yes we have. And you still haven't provided a justification as to why you would make things more unfair for absolutely no reason or gain. It's completely irrational. I'm happy to wait.

I already explained how it's rational. Not allowing women to join, to prevent drama is a logical means of avoiding drama. I've been in a Raid team that excluded homosexuals, because they felt that a homosexual person was more likely to bring up drama, than a straight person, because they can make it about how they're gay, much like a woman can make it about how they're a woman. I've also seen lots of age, and language restrictions over the years (not just in WoW, or even MMOs)

There were also (less succesful) guilds that had racial rules for their applicants, such as no black people, no hispanic people, etc. I think that's going too far, but I can still see some logic in it. A group of adult white men might just get along better with other adult white men, than anything else, and want to only play with that type of person. If they just so happen to be a top guild, then that's just the way it is

[Mewtwo]

I have never personally experienced this.

What I will say is that when there has been drama in a guild I was in, the root cause was almost always a female. Sometimes it is just them being attention whores and causing two male members to argue over her, or they think they can flirt their way up the ranks and get pissy when they don't get promoted. It's just issues like this that would (probably) never arise with a male member.