Holy Pala change inc, discuss

[Azshira]

Ghostcrawler on Beta Analysis thread:

"We were seeing a strategy in some heroic raids of Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, Crusader Strike -> Light of Dawn that took almost no mana and was very effective. We want Light of Dawn to be a good button (we didn't like using Holy Radiance and ignoring Light of Dawn when the going got tough) but we want paladins to use cast time heals too. As a consequence of this, we also made Crusader Strike cost much more mana for Holy. Using CS should be an option, not the only viable way to heal."


Now the first line is a basic way we've used our abilities for max mana regen, it's in reply to the 30% nerf of LoD. They want us to use casting heals, sure we do, but just not as often at the moment, if we used too much HR we'll be oom fairly quick. Its the consequence that strikes me and that's they are going to nerf CS by increasing its mana cost, how do you think that will plan out? Could it be devastating for our ways of regen? I can't get on to beta atm to see if the change went through iirc CS was approx 1.8k mana. If it's not yet implemented it will be in the devs current beta build which we'll be seeing very soon. What do you plan to change in accordance to CS not being as viable as we thought?

[Kyuuseishu]

Just to confirm the change hasn't come through yet, but in response to the increase how far do they intend to increase it? I can't see them increasing it past the current cost of Divine (21.6k) or FoL (22.68k), or even Holy shock (9.6k). It is troubling indeed that they want to stop us using this rotation, but what do they expect when mana seems to be the issue.

They should be more looking at what has drove us to use this rotation of abilities (mana conservation being the point) rather than trying to outright force stop it by increasing the cost by god knows what amount. They would have to increase the cost dramatically to stop it being done though

[Deleted]

The increase in mana cost of crusader strike to make us not go for it for max performance might sound bad now, but its good in the long run since it was forcing you to go towards that route, and we shouldnt be forced to melee in order to heal efectively.

If blizzard didnt do that nerf to CS, paladins would keep doing that gameplay and our numbers would seem OK to blizzards' eyes. SInce it'll be no longer a true max route, blizzard will have to compensate (aka buff) other parts of our regen to compensate since we can no longer create such numbers.

Never forget its beta. Its not realy a nerf, its a tuning act.

[mcbubble]

I'm sorry knightpt, but we were never forced to be in melee. It just makes sense to maximize the mana return from our seal of insight.
This nerf to crusader strike, if a large mana nerf, will definitely hurt.
Maybe they should look at their spells. The reason why I never use Holy Radiance in a raid - because the 10 yard range is utter bullshit (oh and it also heals for shit).

[Nekovivie]

Our mana regen seems really low compared to other classes, so bad that we had to resort to free heals from holy power for a large chunk of our healing. If they are going to take that away from us too then bleh, I'm not seeing good things.

Bring back judgements of the pure.

[Azshira]

Yes the mana regen issue will be alarmingly worse if CS is increased too high. Our aoe is very low, and yes it is masked because we had it more readily available due to our melee swings and CS. However, HR heals extremely badly and is too expensive, LoD heals for worse with the nerf now, it wasnt all that powerful, it was merely masked by us gaining almost a free heal after a few HS/CS rotation.

If we are forced to stop CD completely or lower it considerably... then what? Wait for the next heroic/normal mode testing even LFR and watch our numbers drop to silly low amounts due to we can't afford to use our aoe anywhere near as often.

[Kuniku]

I've not bothered playing the beta an awful lot, but i tend to read various threads on here about healing classes as i'll, as always, level a healer first (still up in the air between resto druid or my new disc priest atm)

but all healing classes seem to be complaining mostly about mana issues, but this seemed largely the same as the start of cata, i know healing heroics the was actually quite challenging (and fun - albeit stressful as the dps didn't appreciate that we couldnt work the wonders we could in wotlk)

i just hope that by the time MoP goes live that mana issues aren't so bad that we can't actually heal in heroics/raids . . .

[Deleted]

Totally the wrong way of doing it, if they don't want us to use CS to gain HP and "free" healing then remove CS from holy's spell book and balanced around that, not increasing the cost of it when the CS cast is self does no healing outside of our seal.

[Deleted]

any1 knows numbers about the new cs? before blaming? maybe its allready worth it?

[Deathgoose]

I don't play Holy (Prot/Ret), but it seemed to be that the obvious solution would be to put CS on a shared CD with Holy Shock, just like CS and Hammer of the Righteous are on shared CD's for Prot (And now Ret, since they get HotR in Mists)

If Holy uses CS, they both go on a 4.5s shared CD, lowered by haste.
If Holy uses Shock, they both go on a 6s shared CD, lowered by haste.

There, now they are more in line with how Prot/Ret work and they don't require some silly "make the mana cost more for this spec and less for these" to discourage double dipping!

And if mana regen is too low, they could just change SoI into letting you get the mana proc a % chance on spells cast, including heals.

[Kerfax]

If anything now it's clear that we have mana issues and were resorting to this to try to get around them. There are a few fixes that could have been put in to fix this, but they did it in a very roundabout way that doesn't seem like they're really concerned with getting rid of it.

[mcbubble]

If anything now it's clear that we have mana issues and were resorting to this to try to get around them. There are a few fixes that could have been put in to fix this, but they did it in a very roundabout way that doesn't seem like they're really concerned with getting rid of it.

Couldn't have said it better myself Kerfax!

[Pasture]

Like I said in the other thread, stop CS generating HP for Holy. Balance healing and mana costs assuming it isn't used. Problem solved. Nerfing LoD is just nonsense.

Using both CS and HS every six second as Holy was a ridiculous playstyle. I can't even imagine how Holy Paladins taking Selfless Healer would feel also squeezing Judgement in every six seconds too.

[Keiyra]

It is troubling indeed that they want to stop us using this rotation, but what do they expect when mana seems to be the issue.

They prolly expect you to cast Holy Light more and to just not LoD as often, least at the start while regen is so tight.

[mcbubble]

So the nerf is out. CS now costs 15% of our base mana. I'm not logged in, but I believe this to be roughly 8500 mana.
This will take it off my usage, especially since it misses over 20% of the time.
So silly what they're doing. What's really funny: Look at Holy Light -> 12.6% of base mana. They need to remove CS from Holy.

[Blitzago]

Correct me if im wrong.

But isn't our base mana 75000, so 75000 x.15 = 11250 mana cost.

[Toggi]

Correct me if im wrong.

But isn't our base mana 75000, so 75000 x.15 = 11250 mana cost.

It's 60k, so CS cost is 9k. More than HL :|

[Azshira]

9k.... dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnn

I would assume mana changes within a build or two whenever raiding starts again because we'll be a hell of a lot lower now.

[Nekovivie]

9k is too expensive for no healing done (CS by itself)

Don't think it'll be worth using ever now unless you have 2HP and just want a quick boost to that 3rd one.

[Pasture]

Don't think it'll be worth using ever now unless you have 2HP and just want a quick boost to that 3rd one.

Tbf that's the only kind of situation it should have been used for in the first place. Using CS on cooldown to conserve mana through free HP heals was bad design in the first place. I'm very happy they have taken this off the table now other than as an option in niche situations. We should be balanced around not using CS, not nerfed because of its use, which has the effect of making it mandatory.