Learning the classes

[Deleted]

I think the abilities are too situational to fit into a tutorial. There are lots of different possibilities around the play style depending on what's going on. The difficulty of the encounter and the randomness you get with targeting affects what spells you are hitting. If you are a mesmer you want to shatter your clones when it's possible to summon more right afterwards, but it depends on the need for burst damage and conditions and if they're about to die anyway so it varies with every encounter. The world acts as a tutorial, in a way. If you keep dying, you're doing it wrong.

[Deleted]

There is a short tutorial area. But really, you can't blame Arenanet for you not understanding a simple thing like thieves using initiative.. o.O

[Zilong]

Yeah I don't get it, either. Makes absolutely no sense at all.
Guild Wars not only had PvP-exclusive characters, but eventually even PvP accounts that skipped the campaigns completely.

For a game that allows you to jump in and be competitive (Hey e-sport) with no gear requirements, restricting that in any way is completely and totally counterproductive.

I didn't point it as THE solution. Just as an example.

I know guild wars is a game where you can jump into the PvP action from the start. And of course people will say there is the tutorial to level 2, and the tutorial in the PvP Mists.

If you ask me, that's not enough.

Every other game has a bigger tutorial, let's face it, gw2 doesn't have a tutorial no matter how you see it. It does indicate what to do and "slows" the process a bit. But be you coming from WoW or new at MMO it's no small step.

While restricting level 2 joining the sPvP is not the answer, I would like a better lobby tutorial maybe? I think the tutorial is really quite "laughable" my 6 year old kid figure it out that part without playing. My point is the combat itself, which is a huge huge point of the game. One that you can learn better if you play a few levels into the game. I'm having a hard time getting my friend to join sPvP back because he got owned hard despite golem training and tutorial in the lobby. XD, and Ive seen how intimidating all is for other players just quitting for PvE.

Idk, you saw how many people were actually complaining about the PvE skill level (I'm not one of them, but you can see how many were in official foruns). And it's pretty much for the same reason, but only a little bit harder because it involves other people too.

[Deleted]

Yeah... I agree with Bovinity. That's like starting up a new The Final Doom game, selecting mission 32: Go 2 It, then complaining that you melted in the first few seconds of engaging the first room of mancubi.

Or for those not versed with The Final Doom, it's like playing paintball once and then joining the SAS.

[Deleted]

Yeah I don't get it, either. Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Agreed - I mean, if I don't know what any of the skills do...and jump in to PvP...well, that's me that's choosing to do that.

Surely the player has to take *some* responsibility.

[Zilong]

It's not like you're forced into sPvP at level 2. If you're seriously hitting level 2, jumping right into sPvP, and then complaining that no one taught you anything yet...well, don't know what to tell ya.

No one is complaining anything o.0. I haven't seem complaints as much as "Wow, this is very hard/different/etc I'll just PvE". Which are just feelings of the games and comments, which can lead people away. That is all.

I'm a pvper on most of the games I play, I hit level 2 of course I jumped to sPvp. It was okay at first took a bit to get really good but I just went down the path of PvE to better improve it, and boy they really help. That is all I'm saying.

Yeah... I agree with Bovinity. That's like starting up a new The Final Doom game, selecting mission 32: Go 2 It, then complaining that you melted in the first few seconds of engaging the first room of mancubi.

Or for those not versed with The Final Doom, it's like playing paintball once and then joining the SAS.

If I got your point right, you say that starting a new character and going straight to pvp is suicide? Because if it is, why would the game let you? The problem here I'm not complaining for here and there, I'm just discussing logically why would they let you then? If the game is different in combat that it's been in 99% of the games, and even if it had a bigger tutorial for both aspects (Which I disagree that it should), why let then? Could make some Idk...first char level 10 = can pvp. Subsequent ones can at level 2 (just an example).

While I understand that it's a player choice to enter the pvp at low level, I think it's not insane to think that if you bought the game and you generally have a PvP mind (keeping in mind that GW is known for it's pvp reasonably well) and the game let you join it at level 2...I see alot of people including a couple of friends that did. And what happened is that they got a "scar". It's healable, I'm doing my best specially when they hit level 20 but they sure did their mind after that happened.

I do not want better/more w/e tutorials because the game simply cannot be taught without actual gameplay experience. There is no fixed formula.
I do not want to ban low level pvp XD, cause I sure as hell enjoy it, did alot of pvp characters thru all betas and stress tests.
But I think it's a discussion that is overlooked, nothing will change I'm sure.

All in all, it's not about the responsibility of the player, I just wish (and I've seen quite a few, easily more than 10) the liberty of doing so didn't "harm" those who don't know what to do.

Not sure if I made sense at all, lol but anyway xD too tired. And didn't find the other thread where we actually discussed that.

[Deleted]

If I got your point right, you say that starting a new character and going straight to pvp is suicide? Because if it is, why would the game let you? The problem here I'm not complaining for here and there, I'm just discussing logically why would they let you then? If the game is different in combat that it's been in 99% of the games, and even if it had a bigger tutorial for both aspects (Which I disagree that it should), why let then? Could make some Idk...first char level 10 = can pvp. Subsequent ones can at level 2 (just an example).

Because you might not want to level up to 85 on one character to PvP even if you're experienced at the game. You could just make a new character and go into PvP straight away.

The difference between GW2 and other MMOs is that GW2's PvP is immediately fleshed out. WoW has the same thing as it has with its endgame - You don't have to know anything until you hit level 85 and, by that time, you know enough about the game to PvP easily enough. Going into PvP at level 2 on WoW on your first character would be suicide, and it would be suicide if you were going in at level 10 and get boosted to 85 with fully fleshed out specs + gear.

You don't have to progress in GW2. It's not a good idea to PvP at lower levels as a newcomer, but you can do it because not everyone is a newcomer. Many are versed in MMOs and want to do structured PvP right off the bat. Comparing Level 10 WoW PvP to Level nothing (because all PvP is scaled up to 80) PvP in GW2 makes no sense, in WoW you have only a few abilities, you don't have a trinket, not all of your gear slots are filled, you do relatively little damage (before the patch that made PvP at low levels the most imbalanced thing in the world). It's very simple, very user friendly. GW2 isn't simple or user friendly because it automatically scales you to a fully developed character.

[zito]

It's not suicide (I did pretty well on all my level 2 toons in sPvP, just by reading the tooltips) but seeing all those new abilities certainly will be different and maybe overwhelming to a player new to MMO's or something. It's up to the player to decide, "I can handle this!" or "I'd better get used to this class a little more first!"

As for "why" the game lets you do it if it's suicide? The game isn't going to stop you from killing yourself, you can go jump in front of a mob two times your level, it's not the games' job to stop you from doing that.

God damn invisible walls in WoW preventing my suicide...

[Merendel]

I dont think its pratical to expect any form of tutorial is going to be enough to even come close to mastering GW2's combat. Its really easy to get started with the combat basics and I feel what tutorials there are do a fine job of that. It introduces you to how to move around, how to use skills, How to deal with pvp specific concepts such as capture and finish. There are heart zones that teach you the basics of useing skills both above and underwater. They give you enough to understand the basics and start learning. To reach any level of mastery however would require hours and hours of tutorials and they would often be very class and build specific. That is just far too much to expect to have dedicated training for. Instead they give you enough to learn on your own by doing. Yes a newbie is going to get eaten alive by an experienced player, the best tutorial in the world wouldnt change that though.

[KryptoX]

Well there is a difference between hand holding and learning the basics. I want to learn how to class basically work. I don't need to them to tell me sick combos, but at least what the class was designed to do. They are giving you a toolbox full of tools without telling you what each one is meant to do.

The tooltips will tell you exactly how each of your "tools" work.

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 05:47 AM ----------

Another example is when playing a mesmer. My abilities of my class , the F1-F4 abilities were about sacrificing my clones and phantasms. I didn't know when I should do this. When I used the scepter I got a lot of them to blow up. When I used another weapon I barely got any. Should I sacrifice them with other weapons at all? Only a last resort?

You just provided the answer yourself. Some weapon sets will give you more illusions/phantasms than others, which obviously lets you to use the shattering abilities more liberally. What more do you want to know exactly?

[Kouki]

I would like the game to be a tad bit harder to encourage people to learn by trial how to play a class.

This game is fun enough to roll alts in so there is no reason to not try all classes and find your best fit.

On the topic of mesmer: Mesmer pets focus one target only then when its dead they vanish, so you should blow them up sometime before that.

[Miah]

PvP is PvP is PvP, there's nothing new here, a stun is a stun, an AoE is an AoE. They slow movement with no zoom out is what's new but ability wise just scroll over the ability and it tells you what it does. No rewards for PvPing is sort of new as well, I'm not sure if they have a ranking system or not, maybe that's your reward but I didn't even see a Damage/healing done chart which really takes the shine off of PvP

[Guilegamesh]

PvP is PvP is PvP, there's nothing new here, a stun is a stun, an AoE is an AoE. They slow movement with no zoom out is what's new but ability wise just scroll over the ability and it tells you what it does. No rewards for PvPing is sort of new as well, I'm not sure if they have a ranking system or not, maybe that's your reward but I didn't even see a Damage/healing done chart which really takes the shine off of PvP

Agreed, I would really like a more detailed scoreboard. I played multiple games where my team would win but the other team would have multiple players with 200+ points. Getting a little more information would be great.

On Topic: I think GW2 could use more tutorials for game modes like WvW and sPvP to a lesser extent. I think a going over your skills tab provides sufficient information on the general working of the class. You will most likely have a hard time in sPvP with a brand new profession, which requires knowledge of the weapon skills, utility skills, and traits and how to use them together effectively.

[DrakeWurrum]

There's rewards for pvping, they're just not rewards of ever-increasing power.

[Deleted]

If I got your point right, you say that starting a new character and going straight to pvp is suicide? Because if it is, why would the game let you? .

Well, remember - we're talking about the hypothetical person who can't figure their skills out without a more indepth tutorial...

Personally, I'm happy enough jumping in to PvE or PvP and figuring things out myself...I would imagine a lot of more experienced gamers are the same - and I would also imagine that a lot of people who hop in to PvP know what they're getting themselves in to and are happy with that.

Locking PvP 'til level 10 or whatever is limiting people who do know what they're doing - and I'd argue that the PvP experience and play is sufficiently different as to only be of limited benefit to the folk who really do struggle to understand what their skills are for.

Might as well make it access-for-all...the worst that can happen is someone who doesn't know what they're doing will struggle and either work at it or think "hmmmmm - maybe start off with a bit of PvE until I've learn what my weapon skills do".

[Derah]

There's an official wiki, which you can actually access in-game I think, if you really want to learn more. :P

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page

Wait WHAT?!?!?

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? That's so awesome I don't even know how to correctly word it >_>

I wish other games had in-game access to the wikis associated with them, specially MMOs.

[Yoshimiko]

Well there is a difference between hand holding and learning the basics. I want to learn how to class basically work. I don't need to them to tell me sick combos, but at least what the class was designed to do. They are giving you a toolbox full of tools without telling you what each one is meant to do.

You have 5 primary abilities, and 0-1 resource systems. It's not exactly rocket science. :P

If you just mouseover stuff and read, it tells you everything. No need to be hand held, and yes - constantly shoving tutorials down your throat is hand holding, through the basics. If you don't understand it, shove your mouse on it and wait 3 seconds.