Glyph of Unleashed Lightning

[Deleted]

Hello shamans!

I want you to show your opinion about the change of our glyph:
"Your Lightning Bolt takes 5% longer to cast, but may be cast while moving."
Personally i would like to see they changing it to work like Priest's Penance glyph from earlier beta builds (Takes longer to cast only while moving)

[Deleted]

Hello shamans!

I want you to show your opinion about the change of our glyph:
"Your Lightning Bolt takes 5% longer to cast, but may be cast while moving."
Personally i would like to see they changing it to work like Priest's Penance glyph from earlier beta builds (Takes longer to cast only while moving)

If they did that it would become 100% Mandatory 100% of the time because Lightning Bolt is such a massive part of our DPS. The movement cast delay would need to be bumped up to like 50% to make it an actual choice (similiar to Warlock Talent) instead of just being a take it and forget it because otherwise it would always be a benefit in every situation.

[ScizCT]

The downside is there to mirror the current choice between taking UL or taking the +4% damage LB glyph, and there has to be a choice for reasons stated above.

[Volitar]

I wish we could just get UL baseline as Elemental. The new glyph isn't fun or compelling, its just annoying.

[Sarevokcz]

If they did that it would become 100% Mandatory 100% of the time because Lightning Bolt is such a massive part of our DPS. The movement cast delay would need to be bumped up to like 50% to make it an actual choice (similiar to Warlock Talent) instead of just being a take it and forget it because otherwise it would always be a benefit in every situation.

Instead its just 100% mandatory 95% of the time in PvE and PvP, save one patchwerk fight per content patch? and LB doesnt really seem to be the biggest part of our damage anymore, it just remains the spell we spend most time casting, which just makes it that more mandatory, as the overall "loss" of dps of the glyph is lower with every LB nerf

tBH, I would prefer if the glyph was just baked in baseline, and balance us around that. They already balance us on movement fights and pvp with UL in mind anyway and it would open up actual glyph options.

[Deleted]

Instead its just 100% mandatory 95% of the time in PvE and PvP, save one patchwerk fight per content patch? and LB doesnt really seem to be the biggest part of our damage anymore, it just remains the spell we spend most time casting, which just makes it that more mandatory, as the overall "loss" of dps of the glyph is lower with every LB nerf

tBH, I would prefer if the glyph was just baked in baseline, and balance us around that. They already balance us on movement fights and pvp with UL in mind anyway and it would open up actual glyph options.

If movement isn't 3-4 seconds per minute its a DPS loss to take it, and even then if you take the UF talent its even less of a DPS loss for movement because you will have more instants in your rotation. You already have SWG, shocks and Searing Totem to use on the move. If the glyph was baseline or had no effect when stood still there would be no downside to it so even in those 3-4 seconds it would be a DPS increase and - due to Lava Burst being often instant - there would be almost 0 rotation change for an ele shaman no matter what situation they were in. That is already the case with UL, but removing its only downside (reduced maximum DPS) would just make it too strong. Putting it baseline would also be too strong because as said on movement fights we would far exceed the strength of any other caster due to basically doing the exact same DPS on the move as standing still.

[Sarevokcz]

If movement isn't 3-4 seconds per minute its a DPS loss to take it, and even then if you take the UF talent its even less of a DPS loss for movement because you will have more instants in your rotation. You already have SWG, shocks and Searing Totem to use on the move. If the glyph was baseline or had no effect when stood still there would be no downside to it so even in those 3-4 seconds it would be a DPS increase and - due to Lava Burst being often instant - there would be almost 0 rotation change for an ele shaman no matter what situation they were in. That is already the case with UL, but removing its only downside (reduced maximum DPS) would just make it too strong. Putting it baseline would also be too strong because as said on movement fights we would far exceed the strength of any other caster due to basically doing the exact same DPS on the move as standing still.

LB is doing way less damage in MoP than in Cata. those 3-4 seconds are Cata values, not MoP value, which WILL be lower, since UE hits like wet noodles. It also has the benefit that you dont need to interrupt the LB you are casting when you need to move.

And really, if you assume all LvBs instant, the glyph allows us in MoP doing movement dps at 98-9% of our standstill potential, that already is too strong compared to other casters. The 1% more is nothing compared to what the glyph provides now.

I think you greatly overestimate the dps loss and underestimate the importance of the glyph, because I honestly dont have a clue, how anyone could say that making UL baseline and giving us no dps on standstill fights and 1% dps on movement fights would be "too strong"

And honestly, why should I care If ele is best movement fight caster? Classes are different, all DoTers are better than us for multidotting and targetswitching and we certainly arent one of the strongest patchwerk nukers either.

[Endus]

LB is doing way less damage in MoP than in Cata. those 3-4 seconds are Cata values, not MoP value, which WILL be lower, since UE hits like wet noodles. It also has the benefit that you dont need to interrupt the LB you are casting when you need to move.

And this all reduces the value of the glyph you're trying to claim is "mandatory".

We're casting LB less and it does less damage, meaning the gains from the glyph are lower than they are in Cata. All of which flies in the face of your "it's 100% mandatory in 95% of all fights" claims.

[Sarevokcz]

And this all reduces the value of the glyph you're trying to claim is "mandatory".

We're casting LB less and it does less damage, meaning the gains from the glyph are lower than they are in Cata. All of which flies in the face of your "it's 100% mandatory in 95% of all fights" claims.

we are not really casting LB "less." it just does less % of overall damage...

[Socialhealer]

GoUL was mostly made cause of pvp. elemental has so so so little control atm that a damn ret paladin could probably run around pillars LoS'in you and healing up if you didnt have that glyph, and thats if they wasnt trying to kill you.

of course its pve change was also pretty big and needed, tbh im all with it being baseline because its just impossible to not take it due to our lack of instants and DoTs. and then SWG becomes more focused on elemental popping heals while running. (and with 4/6 tiers of talents being healing/survival its not exactly away from the direction blizzard is taking us)

[Endus]

we are not really casting LB "less." it just does less % of overall damage...

You're casting LvB more, with instant casts allowing for less "wasted" lava surge procs, and Ascendance allowing us to spam LvB.

To run some comparisons, let's compare the MoP sims (which run enough numbers to average things out at least, and cast proportions are much less likely to be off than other factors) with 4.3 sims. Since Haste levels are going to make for faster casts, I'll be using the T12N profile, since that's the closest I can get to the Haste levels in MoP (as you'll see from the number of casts). It's still using the 4.3 model, just the old gearset.

4.3: 212.6 LB casts, out of 329.3 casts, or 64.6% of our casts would be LBs.
MoP: 146.4 LB casts, out of 322.8 casts (slightly lower Haste levels), or 45.4% of our casts.

Admittedly, that sim is assuming the use of EB, but even if we add those in as LB casts for other talent picks (assuming no use of GoUL for the moment, so they have the same 2.0s cast time), that brings us to 176.4/322.8 casts, still about 35 casts fewer than 4.3, and 54.6% of our casts, about a 10% reduction.

So yes, we really ARE casting LB less. Check the sims next time.

[Sarevokcz]

You're casting LB more, with instant casts allowing for less "wasted" lava surge procs, and Ascendance allowing us to spam LvB.

If I run 25k iterations with the T12N profile (because I can't snag T11 BiS profiles anywhere simple, and that's the closest I can easily get Simcraft to having proportional Haste values to MoP T14 levels once you factor in scaling adjustments);

4.3: 212.6 LB casts, out of 329.3 casts, or 64.6% of our casts would be LBs.
MoP: 146.4 LB casts, out of 322.8 casts (slightly lower Haste levels), or 45.4% of our casts.

Admittedly, that sim is assuming the use of EB, but even if we add those in as LB casts for other talent picks (assuming no use of GoUL for the moment, so they have the same cast time), that brings us to 176.4/322.8 casts, still about 35 casts fewer than 4.3, and 54.6% of our casts, about a 10% reduction.

So yes, we really ARE casting LB less. Check the sims next time.

I checked actual time spent casting LBs (70% for Cata) to MoP values (62% with EB converted) not numbers of casts.

the 8% difference is completely made up with Ascendance.

So yes, I should have clarified, we will be casting about same amount of LBs outside of Ascendance, but LB casts still take almost 2/3 of our time spent casting

If anything, Ascendance will make us try to save SWGs for it, so we wont have SWGs ready for some random movements that often

And just for fun - damage checks; LB doing 49,8% damage in Cata, 32,5% in MoP (converted EB damage to make it fair if we considered EB casttime as LB casttime) - we cast 12% less LBs, but do 35% less damage with it.

I wont even go to DPET comparisons, as those are pretty clear just from looking at sims, that LB lost its "oomph" compared to all other spells (except UE, ironic, as the filler got even worse than LB)

And all of this doesnt really make glyph weaker. LB still takes majority of our casttime, regardless of the damage. Point me out two MoP bosses where you wouldnt take the glyph and didnt cheese/ignore the mechanics (standing in AoEs, not running to your targets etc etc, the stuff your normally do only on overgeared content when you try to rank)

[Endus]

I checked actual time spent casting LBs (70% for Cata) to MoP values (62% with EB converted) not numbers of casts.

the 8% difference is completely made up with Ascendance.

So yes, I should have clarified, we will be casting about same amount of LBs outside of Ascendance, but LB casts still take almost 2/3 of our time spent casting

That's not really a good measure to use, since it's affected directly by Haste levels, particularly if you're using the T13 sims vs the T14 sims. That's why I went with number of casts, and proportion to total numbers of casts.

And all of this doesnt really make glyph weaker. LB still takes majority of our casttime, regardless of the damage. Point me out two MoP bosses where you wouldnt take the glyph and didnt cheese/ignore the mechanics (standing in AoEs, not running to your targets etc etc, the stuff your normally do only on overgeared content when you try to rank)

Even by your own comparison, we're using LB 8% less in Cata, meaning that yes, the glyph is weaker.

There's a difference between "weaker" and "weak", which may be where you're tripping up. Nobody said GoUL would be bad or not worth taking in MoP, just that extrapolating its value in Cata into MoP doesn't work, because it's not as good for a host of reasons.

Which is fine; it's a Major in MoP, not a Prime. It SHOULDN'T be as good.

[Deleted]

Not to mention even in Cata (where its better both because of the downside being less (5% cast speed compared to 4% damage) and also the reasons stated by Endus) you still actively try to not use it. On live I now only use UL on Warlord. Every single other fight its a loss to use it on. It should be an active choice, do you sacrifice maximum possible DPS for higher real damage. In sims you will always do more without it, its whether the loss of using the glyph mathematically can be made up by the improvement in your play through using it. It is most certainly not mandatory. If anything you should be striving to NOT use it. Minimising movement as much as possible, and only using it if theres definitely going to be a benefit.

[Socialhealer]

Not to mention even in Cata (where its better both because of the downside being less (5% cast speed compared to 4% damage) and also the reasons stated by Endus) you still actively try to not use it. On live I now only use UL on Warlord. Every single other fight its a loss to use it on. It should be an active choice, do you sacrifice maximum possible DPS for higher real damage. In sims you will always do more without it, its whether the loss of using the glyph mathematically can be made up by the improvement in your play through using it. It is most certainly not mandatory. If anything you should be striving to NOT use it. Minimising movement as much as possible, and only using it if theres definitely going to be a benefit.

but thats only because of a 30% nerf.

morchok you'd certainly want it pre-nerf soaking crystals properly and running black phase (yes u could use a SWG but i dont think u'd get enough of them to cover the movement)
yor'sahj you'd want to be moving to intercept every slime thats moving like 8-9 times for quite a period of time.
hagara its much easier on your raid if you run around soaking ice lances and the frost phase.
warmaster is a no brainer...tons of movement pre-nerf soaking and not soaking.

thats how i progressed 5/8 fights you must take GoUL the other 3 can definately be done without it. but i agree now you can basically go without it because a 30% nerf.

[Sarevokcz]

Not to mention even in Cata (where its better both because of the downside being less (5% cast speed compared to 4% damage) and also the reasons stated by Endus) you still actively try to not use it. On live I now only use UL on Warlord. Every single other fight its a loss to use it on. It should be an active choice, do you sacrifice maximum possible DPS for higher real damage. In sims you will always do more without it, its whether the loss of using the glyph mathematically can be made up by the improvement in your play through using it. It is most certainly not mandatory. If anything you should be striving to NOT use it. Minimising movement as much as possible, and only using it if theres definitely going to be a benefit.

Well yea, NOW you can take LB glyph, when you can cheese and ignore 90% of mechanics on nerfed bosses, when you overgear them, thats a valid argument... If you were designated crystal soaker, ooze killer, tentacle killer, lance soaker, purple-thingy soaker etc (the stuff ranged should be doing...) there was pretty much no room to not take it on atleast 5-6 fights. And lets be honest here, DS was horribly boring in the movement regard, FL and t11 were much more engaging and so are MoP raids.

as I said in my previous post, show me two (heroic) MoP bosses, where sacrificing the ~1% max damage from taking the glyph is not worth it, without cheesing or ignoring mechanics of the fight or a serious PvPer, that wouldnt take the glyph

[Deleted]

as I said in my previous post, show me two (heroic) MoP bosses, where sacrificing the ~1% max damage from taking the glyph is not worth it, without cheesing or ignoring mechanics of the fight or a serious PvPer, that wouldnt take the glyph

Garulon if your aren't selected to be a boss tank and Spiritbinder. Just two off the top of my head. Sha of Anger (or is it Fear? Im horrible with names, the one that isnt a world boss) could also be an option I think.

[Sarevokcz]

Garulon if your aren't selected to be a boss tank and Spiritbinder. Just two off the top of my head. Sha of Anger (or is it Fear? Im horrible with names, the one that isnt a world boss) could also be an option I think.

Yea, Ill give you Gara'Jal, that one is easy, Garalon dunno, depending on tactics and raidsize I guess, but honestly, its not a boss I wouldnt pick UL for progress. Not really sure about Sha, there was definitely enough forced movement on both platforms, especially for 10mans.

[Deleted]

Yea, Ill give you Gara'Jal, that one is easy, Garalon dunno, depending on tactics and raidsize I guess, but honestly, its not a boss I wouldnt pick UL for progress. Not really sure about Sha, there was definitely enough forced movement on both platforms, especially for 10mans.

The point is, its NOT a 100% mandatory thing. You do have the choice. And as such its a nice choice to have, and no reason to make it baseline. Its an interesting choice that allows good players to make an active difference to their performance, which I like.

[Irisel]

I would much prefer the glyph be baseline, and have a new glyph in turn that increases damage by 5% and sacrifices the ability to cast it while moving.