Glyph of Unleashed Lightning

[jace5869]

I just have to say that Sarevokcz is my new favorite person on these forums.

And the whole semantic argument about "mandatory" is absurd. You can easily take "mandatory" to extreme cases. I agree with Sarev, bake it into elementals baseline toolkit and free up a glyph for something else.

I agree with you, lol..Shaman forums/topics are on the verge of unbearable cause it's a constant pissing contest.

[Endus]

more instants? where? LvB procs we cant rely on? unless we take PE, our mobility is gonna be equal or worse as SWG will in most cases be saved for Ascendance and we wont be able to depend on it that much, EB makes part of our damage immobile and UE takes the only real instant filler we have to fill in on movement, as it will jump in priority list ahead of LB

The LvB procs are a really significant factor. The rest of that comment, you're complaining about making talent choices that limit your mobility. If mobility's a concern, pick a different talent. That's how the system works.

Or glyph GoUL.

Seriously, nobody's arguing that you shouldn't ever use GoUL. Just that there'll be fights where the rest of our toolkit is plenty of mobility and you won't want to lose the 5% cast speed on LB for little gain.

yes bad OR other stuff, bud if it was optional, they wouldnt be bad, would they.

So again, how dissing people for not using EQ makes the talent optional or what I said not true?

"If you're not using it on stacked AoE fights"
"For fights where AoE DPS is important"
"If you're not using it on AoE fights"

Because you're deliberately ignoring the relevant context in the quotes you're using.

Yes, for fights where there's a lot of mobility, you should be using GoUL. It's still optional. Just like if there's AoE, you should be using EQ, but it's optional.

So yes, what you've tried to claim about my stance on EQ is, to be blunt, not true. As you could tell, if you'd bothered to read any of the quotes you cited.

[Nebria]

I have one problem.

When we take a look to the simcraft results where we are currently at the end of the list. Some people say simcraft is not updated (which I ignore for now) or on movement fights it will be much better as we can do nearly our usual cast priority.
But to do this I guess we have to use GoUL. So it will automatically make it optimal/(mandatory?) for that kind of fights. What you think about this?

[Deleted]

But to do this I guess we have to use GoUL. So it will automatically make it optimal/(mandatory?) for that kind of fights. What you think about this?

If you like. Personally, I would use Spiritwalker Grace on fights like Spirit Kings (mostly because of "Flanking Orders" ability) or Jade Guardians.

[Wataurenyew]

"If you're not using it on stacked AoE fights"
"For fights where AoE DPS is important"
"If you're not using it on AoE fights"

Because you're deliberately ignoring the relevant context in the quotes you're using.

Yes, for fights where there's a lot of mobility, you should be using GoUL. It's still optional. Just like if there's AoE, you should be using EQ, but it's optional.

So yes, what you've tried to claim about my stance on EQ is, to be blunt, not true. As you could tell, if you'd bothered to read any of the quotes you cited.

I'm getting lost here, are you guys arguing Optional vs Mandatory or Optimal vs Mandatory?
With Optional vs Mandatory I'd have to say that Endus is correct, if something doesn't need to be used in all situations GoUL, EQ, etc it is Optional not Mandatory.

As to the quotes in regards to EQ:

For fights where AoE DPS is important?

Yes, if they don't spec into it they are either bad (because they don't know what they're doing), or more likely, they've reviewed their specific raid comp performance and only aren't because they've been selected to do something else in that fight, or are running two specs for other purposes and their guild has decided optimizing (H) Yor'sahj isn't important enough to let them go respec for that fight.

There's plenty of reasons why they might not, but they know that they're not personally optimizing their DPS (instead, optimizing raid success), or are taking a performance hit for the sake of not losing time between bosses.

This is clearly stating that players that don't spec EQ for AOE are bad, not because they didn't choose the optimal talent because those people don't even know that it's the optimal talent. He goes on to mention reasons why you would choose not to be optimal, but you know that not choosing EQ isn't optimal.

So it's not that they are bad because they choose to be non-optimal, they are bad because they don't even know that it's non-optimal. It's the knowledge not the choice that was making those bad.

Earthquake works just fine. If you're in an AoE situation, you'll want to use it. Elementals who don't aren't playing as well as they could be.

Not playing as well as you could be isn't calling somebody bad, it is calling them non-Optimal, or not playing at 100%.

Also, EQ's a perfectly good AoE and has been for all of 4.3. If you're not using it on AoE fights, you're gimping your DPS, and should just admit you're an "I play what I want" type, not someone concerned with gameplay optimization.

Notice he isn't calling the person bad he's stating that they choose to play the style they want instead of at 100% potential. He doesn't state that is wrong or that makes them bad, just that they aren't doing as much DPS as they could. If the DPS difference isn't large enough playing how you want is legitimate if you are pushing top end progression, ie not worried about optimization.

And before anybody accuses me of being some White Knight consider that I've argued with Endus far more than I have agreed with him.

[Dookles]

We are balanced around having the glyph, and therefor we should have it baseline. You two can play devil's advocate and argue semantics and so forth until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that this glyph will be mandatory for all pvp situations, and over 90% of pve. There is only the illusion of choice here, nothing more.

[Wunhunglo]

One thing to take into account if you compare ele vs other classes while moving (bar arcane mages, i'm not familiar with demon locks) is the fact that they have multiple dots ticking when not casting, whereas an ele (definitely in T11) does only searing totem & flame shock damage.

This^^^^

Just going off of my most recent Ultraxion kill (allow me first to thank the wonderful jerk-wad that caused a wipe that led to this wonderful parse w/o my Fire Elemental) you can see how much DPS comes from DOTs which allow true mobility from other classes vs Elemental Shammies. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10372&e=10599

Just a real quick overview shows the following (just who I was competing with so some ranged class/specs are missing) on a single target fight where dot damage will not be inflated:
Fire Mage: Roughly 44% (and that is not counting initial Pyroblast damage).
Destro Lock: Roughly 34% (and that is not counting initial Immolate damage).
Shadow Priest: 28.7%
Boomkin: 30% (and that is not counting initial Sunfire and Moonfire damage).
And then there is the Elemental Shaman with a whopping: 6% from Flame Shock (5% without the initial damage) and 6.8% coming from Searing Totem. That would be 11.8% total (not counting initial Flame Shock damage).

We won't even look at Affliction Warlocks.

So Arcane Mages and Hunters are the only two that I am not 100% sure about but I hear they have alot of instants.

So if we could move and still have 30%-40% of our damage going instead of 11% we would be in a MUCH better position than we currently are. With Spirit Walker's Grace having a 2 minute cooldown it would seem mandatory for us to have GOUL for any fight with longer distance movement (aka more than just sidestepping a mechanic) that happens more often than every two minutes. I do not think it will take that much movement to have the damage loss from the glyph be overtaken by the damage loss from moving.

[Endus]

Just going off of my most recent Ultraxion kill (allow me first to thank the wonderful jerk-wad that caused a wipe that led to this wonderful parse w/o my Fire Elemental) you can see how much DPS comes from DOTs which allow true mobility from other classes vs Elemental Shammies.

You aren't factoring in instant casts, or cast-while-moving effects like SWG and, more importantly, GoUL.

Which means your comparison is useless for mobile DPS. What you're actually looking at, while only looking at DoTs, is damage you can deal while out of range. If Elemental is within 40 yards of the boss, the only thing they ever need to stop moving to cast is Lava Burst, and in 5.0.4, even that will be instant if Lava Surge procs.

If you're playing Elemental and dropping to 11% damage when you're moving, then you're either playing with one hand, or have no idea what you're doing. And on further thought, I'm pretty sure one-handed players could find ways to improve on that number.

Elemental DPS while moving is closer to the 80-90% mark. Even if we ignore Glyph of Unleashed Lightning, it won't be anywhere close to 11%

[psycho42]

Just throwing this out there.. but I don't think I could ever live without this glyph.. just for the sheer fact that its a huge quality of life thing to be able to run around and cast lightning bolts at the same time.

Getting caught without this glyph as elemental in pvp is a joke also... and I'm pretty sure I'll spend more time out and about in the world than raiding.

For me this glyph is basically mandatory. Swapping it out for one or two bosses so I can have slightly higher DPS is just a minor nuisance, when really it needs to just be baseline by now for elemental.

[binkenstein]

Elemental DPS while moving is closer to the 80-90% mark. Even if we ignore Glyph of Unleashed Lightning, it won't be anywhere close to 11%

90% with UL, 80% without, using the heavymovement condition in Simcraft (4 sec moving, 10 sec cooldown)

[Raintola]

I wish we could just get UL baseline as Elemental. The new glyph isn't fun or compelling, its just annoying.

How would you define "fun and compelling?" What, the glyph turns your Lightning Bolt into a fucking sparkle pony rainbow?

[psycho42]

How would you define "fun and compelling?" What, the glyph turns your Lightning Bolt into a fucking sparkle pony rainbow?

I.. would like having the option to shoot rainbows...

[Blitond]

This^^^^

Just going off of my most recent Ultraxion kill (allow me first to thank the wonderful jerk-wad that caused a wipe that led to this wonderful parse w/o my Fire Elemental) you can see how much DPS comes from DOTs which allow true mobility from other classes vs Elemental Shammies. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10372&e=10599

Just a real quick overview shows the following (just who I was competing with so some ranged class/specs are missing) on a single target fight where dot damage will not be inflated:
Fire Mage: Roughly 44% (and that is not counting initial Pyroblast damage).
Destro Lock: Roughly 34% (and that is not counting initial Immolate damage).
Shadow Priest: 28.7%
Boomkin: 30% (and that is not counting initial Sunfire and Moonfire damage).
And then there is the Elemental Shaman with a whopping: 6% from Flame Shock (5% without the initial damage) and 6.8% coming from Searing Totem. That would be 11.8% total (not counting initial Flame Shock damage).

We won't even look at Affliction Warlocks.

So Arcane Mages and Hunters are the only two that I am not 100% sure about but I hear they have alot of instants.

So if we could move and still have 30%-40% of our damage going instead of 11% we would be in a MUCH better position than we currently are. With Spirit Walker's Grace having a 2 minute cooldown it would seem mandatory for us to have GOUL for any fight with longer distance movement (aka more than just sidestepping a mechanic) that happens more often than every two minutes. I do not think it will take that much movement to have the damage loss from the glyph be overtaken by the damage loss from moving.

Some DoT's have cast times associated with them reducing their mobility.Classes are different. DD vs. DoT classes are different. You can't use that as validation for much.

I'm not inherently trying to disagree with you, but I think you are missing what most people are saying. What some people are saying is that GoUL is so strong that in any PvE scenario where you move more than X seconds/min it is going to be a DPS increase and chosen. Traditionally it is the majority of fights by a long shot (especially HM's).

There are 3 general playstyles in WoW

1. PvE - As stated above, it isn't 100% mandatory on every fight. There are some patchwork style fights where it can be dropped, but traditionally they are few.
2. PvP - I can't think of a realistic case where you wouldn't take the glyph.
3. Leveling/questing/holiday events/etc. - Can't think of a case where you wouldn't take the glyph.

GoUL is so critical to most aspects of Elemental that it brings up the question why should it be in an glyph and not baked into elemental as a core ability?
People who are arguing against it are only looking at 1 small part and ignoring the big picture imo.

[Deleted]

Some DoT's have cast times associated with them reducing their mobility.Classes are different. DD vs. DoT classes are different. You can't use that as validation for much.

I'm not inherently trying to disagree with you, but I think you are missing what most people are saying. What some people are saying is that GoUL is so strong that in any PvE scenario where you move more than X seconds/min it is going to be a DPS increase and chosen. Traditionally it is the majority of fights by a long shot (especially HM's).

There are 3 general playstyles in WoW

1. PvE - As stated above, it isn't 100% mandatory on every fight. There are some patchwork style fights where it can be dropped, but traditionally they are few.
2. PvP - I can't think of a realistic case where you wouldn't take the glyph.
3. Leveling/questing/holiday events/etc. - Can't think of a case where you wouldn't take the glyph.

GoUL is so critical to most aspects of Elemental that it brings up the question why should it be in an glyph and not baked into elemental as a core ability?
People who are arguing against it are only looking at 1 small part and ignoring the big picture imo.

My arguement against making GoUL baseline is not really the fact I dont want it, I do. I'd love for it to be baseline. I just disagree when people say it should be or we are broken or something "because we are forced to use it", because we aren't. I do like the ability to choose and drop it, but would I cry if they removed the 5% Cast Speed loss and made it baseline? No I wouldn't. I'd be happy.

I do however take issue with it being baseline with absolutely no downsides, because then on any movement fight we do substantially more DPS than everyone else because we do ~90% of a patchwerk style fights DPS no matter what. You could be jumping on the spot the entire fight doing jumping 360 no scope Lightning Bolts to the bosses face and have no penalisation. There needs to be SOME kind of downside to that kind of mobility. At the moment its the 5% Cast Speed, if it was baseline I would worry they would reduce our standing still DPS slightly to compensate.

[kaikoraimi]

I.. would like having the option to shoot rainbows...

Here ya go.

[Blitond]

My arguement against making GoUL baseline is not really the fact I dont want it, I do. I'd love for it to be baseline. I just disagree when people say it should be or we are broken or something "because we are forced to use it", because we aren't. I do like the ability to choose and drop it, but would I cry if they removed the 5% Cast Speed loss and made it baseline? No I wouldn't. I'd be happy.

I do however take issue with it being baseline with absolutely no downsides, because then on any movement fight we do substantially more DPS than everyone else because we do ~90% of a patchwerk style fights DPS no matter what. You could be jumping on the spot the entire fight doing jumping 360 no scope Lightning Bolts to the bosses face and have no penalisation. There needs to be SOME kind of downside to that kind of mobility. At the moment its the 5% Cast Speed, if it was baseline I would worry they would reduce our standing still DPS slightly to compensate.

I see mobility as elementals nitch in PvE. I'm personally fine with that being a nitch, just like some classes have nitches in patchwork fights or multi target fights. There would be a problem if elemental was topping DPS on mobility, patchwork, and multi dot fights sure, but that's a matter of number tweaking.

If they made it baseline, they would balance elemental around it. I find it hard to believe they don't already balance elemental around it anyways. That argument is a stretch anyways since it really doesn't matter where its coming from, either baseline or from a glyph it is still there. On patchwork fights we might be ~1% lower in DPS, but that still pretty small.

[Wunhunglo]

Classes are different. DD vs. DoT classes are different. You can't use that as validation for much.

I completely agree with you on this. However, please tell me which ranged DPS classes you consider DD and which ones you consider to be DoT classes. I listed four classes from my recent logs (Boomer, Fire Mage, S. Priest and Destro Warlock) and the worst of them nearly tripled our damage from DoTs. You then have the Arcane Mage and all breeds of hunter...and us. Now if you consider classes that are actually playable right now (e.g. guilds will actually bring you along for your dps and not just your buff) you can go ahead and eliminate Marksman and BM hunters (and almost Arcane Mages).

So to round out the last two specs that I left out above (and ignoring the Afflic lock because everyone knows they are DoT classes):
Survival Hunters get appx 14% of their damage from DoTs and about 12% from their pet. So they are at 26% damage from DoT's (counting the pet because it technically is a DoT). I do, however, count 6 instant cast spells in the Survival Hunters rotation which is a significant advantage over the Elemental Shaman (however I do not know which of these require you to stand still so this is based on an assumption that).
Arcane Mage: Mirror Image is doing about nothing so forget them (less than 1%). This class obviously has less DoT's than we do.

So yes, DD vs DoT classes are different. But DD with many instants (instants that actually do a decent amount of their damage (see assumption above)) and DD with hardly any instants are also two different things and we obviously fall into the second category. Yes, the changes to Lava Surge proc are going to help us in that area but not solve it. Having Lava Surge proc designed the way it is only helps us if it happens to proc right as we are moving and Murphy's Law dictates that that will not be happening 100% of the time.

On the other hand, the nerf that comes with the GOUL isn't all that bad and I am merely stating that we hardly have any damage coming from DoTs and that is why it is important for us to have an actual method of moving and casting at the same time that is somewhat reliable. Currently with Spiritwalker's Grace we only get to cast and run for 12.5% of the time and I do not feel that it is truly enough for us (on most fights) to drop GOUL. It is just my opinion but I believe it wholeheartedly.

[Endus]

So yes, DD vs DoT classes are different. But DD with many instants (instants that actually do a decent amount of their damage (see assumption above)) and DD with hardly any instants are also two different things and we obviously fall into the second category. Yes, the changes to Lava Surge proc are going to help us in that area but not solve it. Having Lava Surge proc designed the way it is only helps us if it happens to proc right as we are moving and Murphy's Law dictates that that will not be happening 100% of the time.

Elemental Shaman is one of the classes with a lot of instants. You're making a false distinction based on faulty data. Our mobility is already going to be reasonable without GoUL, and with GoUL, it will be the best mobility of any caster in the game, by a fair margin.

The amount of DoT damage versus direct damage is 100% irrelevant. That only matters in cases where a direct damage class can't be casting. Elemental Shaman have very little dead time, even on the move. Trying to only look at some of our casting-while-moving and deliberately ignoring others, in an attempt to portray the class as lacking mobility, is not a fair or reasonable angle of argument.

[Wunhunglo]

Elemental Shaman is one of the classes with a lot of instants.

A lot of instants?? I am not talking about instants that we do not use in our typical rotation (aka things that would normally cause us a DPS loss). Flame Shock and Earth Shock (which happen to share a cooldown), Unleash Elements (which we never use except for a few special circumstances and it has a cooldown) and Thunderstorm (which only works if you are in melee range and has a cooldown). Our instant cast spells (barring a 8-9 stack Fulmination) are fairly impotent compared to those of a hunter (which also make up 50%+ of their rotation).

The amount of DoT damage versus direct damage is 100% irrelevant. That only matters in cases where a direct damage class can't be casting. Elemental Shaman have very little dead time, even on the move.

I AM talking about the dead time we have while moving which makes DoT damage completely relevant.

Trying to only look at some of our casting-while-moving and deliberately ignoring others, in an attempt to portray the class as lacking mobility, is not a fair or reasonable angle of argument.

Please inform me of which "casting-while-moving" I deliberately ignored? While many classes can continue to lay down DPS-Positive spells while moving and/or have DPS-Positive DoT's rolling while they move, Elemental Shaman have to leave it up to a fair amount of luck to have any DPS positive abilities ready when they have to move (assuming SWG is on cooldown). What can we do while moving that is DPS positive?
1) Renewing FS could be DPS-Positive if FS was about to fall off. Renewing it early is only DPS-Neutral.
2) Dropping Fulmination stacks is only DPS-Positive if we have 6/7 stacks in MoP (correct me if I am wrong). It is DPS-Negative to drop them earlier.
3) Renew Searing Totem (same as FS).
4) Cast a Lava Surge proc'd Lava Burst (if you are lucky enough to have a proc while moving).
5) Cast Unleash Elements which would normally be DPS-Negative but is better than nothing while moving.

So many options in the list are not things that we would normally do while standing still. Maybe it is just my lack of understanding other classes mechanics but I do not see many other classes deviating much from their typical rotation while moving. They all have enough instants and/or DoTs rolling to be able to buffer the movement.

In the end, I personally feel fairly useless while moving without Spiritwalker's Grace if my best bet is to renew my Flame Shock (which hits like a wet paper napkin) or my Searing Totem (also wet paper napkin) because I didn't have a Lava Surge proc and/or a good stack of Fulmination built up. For that reason, I will probably have GOUL on for most fights. I wish I had time to layout my logic with math and try to prove my point beyond the "this is what I think" statement but I do not. I guess we will just have to see where the pieces fall come Pandaland.

BTW, since a few of you are quoting statistics from Simcraft, care to comment on Elemental Shammies being 23k dps behind the top dps in the last T14 run?
http://simulationcraft.org/504/Raid_T14H.html
Do you think this is realistic? If so, do you consider that balanced?

[Endus]

A lot of instants?? I am not talking about instants that we do not use in our typical rotation (aka things that would normally cause us a DPS loss). Flame Shock and Earth Shock (which happen to share a cooldown), Unleash Elements (which we never use except for a few special circumstances and it has a cooldown) and Thunderstorm (which only works if you are in melee range and has a cooldown). Our instant cast spells (barring a 8-9 stack Fulmination) are fairly impotent compared to those of a hunter (which also make up 50%+ of their rotation).

And again, you keep inventing things to exclude from Elemental Shaman for the sole apparent purpose of trying to portray Elemental Shaman, falsely, as being a spec lacking in mobility.

I AM talking about the dead time we have while moving which makes DoT damage completely relevant.

If that's what you're talking about, then Elemental has one of the lowest of ANY caster.

Please inform me of which "casting-while-moving" I deliberately ignored? While many classes can continue to lay down DPS-Positive spells while moving and/or have DPS-Positive DoT's rolling while they move, Elemental Shaman have to leave it up to a fair amount of luck to have any DPS positive abilities ready when they have to move (assuming SWG is on cooldown). What can we do while moving that is DPS positive?
1) Renewing FS could be DPS-Positive if FS was about to fall off. Renewing it early is only DPS-Neutral.
2) Dropping Fulmination stacks is only DPS-Positive if we have 6/7 stacks in MoP (correct me if I am wrong). It is DPS-Negative to drop them earlier.
3) Renew Searing Totem (same as FS).
4) Cast a Lava Surge proc'd Lava Burst (if you are lucky enough to have a proc while moving).
5) Cast Unleash Elements which would normally be DPS-Negative but is better than nothing while moving.

So many options in the list are not things that we would normally do while standing still. Maybe it is just my lack of understanding other classes mechanics but I do not see many other classes deviating much from their typical rotation while moving. They all have enough instants and/or DoTs rolling to be able to buffer the movement.

No, it's you not understanding Elemental mechanics. You're proposing things we would never do (dumping LS stacks early) because we always have better options while moving, which you're not even listing.

The facts are; Elemental Shaman never have to dip below their standing rotation. Ever. It literally never happens. You never use an ability while moving that you wouldn't use standing still, because you always have a better option available to you.

The ONLY way we lose DPS while moving in 5.0.4 and beyond is if we delay a Lava Burst because we didn't get a Lava Surge proc before the cooldown ended. We never have to take a DPS-losing option while moving aside from that. Every single item you listed which is a DPS loss under a standing rotation is not something any Elemental Shaman will ever use in actual play, even if they spend the entire fight moving and literally never stop. You're making up useless irrelevancies.

In short, you're excluding that our major filler, Lightning Bolt, is never unavailable for casting. We never ever ever have to dip below that for anything we wouldn't normally use. It's a gross misunderstanding of Elemental mechanics dating back to the launch of 4.2.

And before you say "But that's only if you glyph GoUL", my response is if we're moving that much, we are. If you aren't, then the issue is that you, as a player, do not understand how to play your spec. You cannot come into a discussion and use deliberately playing as badly as you can imagine as an argument that a class is flawed. That's not the class or spec, that's on you. If you can fix it by not being bad, then you should stop being bad, not blame it on the spec.

BTW, since a few of you are quoting statistics from Simcraft, care to comment on Elemental Shammies being 23k dps behind the top dps in the last T14 run?
http://simulationcraft.org/504/Raid_T14H.html
Do you think this is realistic? If so, do you consider that balanced?

It's not realistic, since sims are inherently unrealistic and those particular models aren't "finished" yet. As the big warnings at the top of your own link would tell you.

And even if we are lower on a standing fight with zero movement or interaction with DPS, something we haven't seen since Patchwerk in Naxx, that doesn't make us unbalanced because, again, we have hands-down the best mobility of any caster in the game. The only ranged who MIGHT be comparable are Hunters, but I'll note here that you haven't said a darn thing about all three Hunter specs being even lower on the simulationcraft.