The Warrior Protector of the Pandarian Mists: A Protection Warrior Guide 5.0

[Pua]

If you compare IV to Barrier, Barrier will win, but there are situations in MoP content where you will be taking a hit with Barrier up, and needing a heal but being out of LoS of your healers for a few seconds, in which case either it or Enraged Regen are actually good

That sounds a wee bit contrived, but I accept that my erstwhile example could be viewed equally.

I suppose what I’m trying to get at is this:

What’s a better use of your rage?

Because a barrier will practically always win, the value of Impending Victory and Enraged Regeneration plummets.

Anyway, I think we’re flogging a dead horse – I don’t want to bog this discussion down with a tier 2 debate. It'll just cause Blizzard apologists to argue that this dreadful redesign is somehow good.

[kopcap]

Not sure which dreadful redesign you are referring too, but imo current talent/ability/resource model is heaps better than what we had most of Cata. Tier 2 talents are particularly good.

[voidillusion]

I wanted to touch this issue again, the Strenght issue.

At the moment, lvl 85 and in my level gear, i'm getting more parry from strenght than from parry itself. As consequence i'm using +STR/+Mastery gems instead of the Fine lava corals.

Just a small detail i wanted to share.

[Pua]

Not sure which dreadful redesign you are referring too, but imo current talent/ability/resource model is heaps better than what we had most of Cata. Tier 2 talents are particularly good.

I completely disagree with every opinion you share in this post. Note that I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I’m at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. We’ve lost all our options, the talents are largely lacklustre (with tier 2 probably the worst offender) and the glyphs are a mess – the whole redesign, for my part, is an abject failure compared to what we had in Cataclysm.

[voidillusion]

I completely disagree with every opinion you share in this post. Note that I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I’m at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. We’ve lost all our options, the talents are largely lacklustre (with tier 2 probably the worst offender) and the glyphs are a mess – the whole redesign, for my part, is an abject failure compared to what we had in Cataclysm.

Not to mention that the Arms overhaul failed tremendously, but this line of reasoning is bound to derail this thread xD

[kopcap]

Sole fact that people can't settle on tier 2 talents is a fair indication it is a success.

Defending Cata's two button rotation coupled with infinite rage and binary vengeance is something I would not be able to understand. It was a freaking joke. About the only thing it had better was AoE rotation, which is now sorta silly.

[voidillusion]

Sole fact that people can't settle on tier 2 talents is a fair indication it is a success.

People not being able to settle between consensualy 3 very underwhelming and weak talents is a sucess? Really?

[kopcap]

A 20% instant heal, a 10% gcd self heal and a 3% hot for a second tier talent - weak and underwhelming? Silly blizzard should had given us a choice of an ice block, dispersion and loh.

[Pua]

Sole fact that people can't settle on tier 2 talents is a fair indication it is a success.

And there it is, I called it in. I knew someone would pipe up with this Blizzard-endorsed drivel.

Disagreement over three garbage talents is not “success”. And before arguing that they’re not garbage, take a look at what other tanks can do as baseline with regard to self-healing. At best, 20% of your health every 60 seconds is dreadful, especially given the rage costs (directly or indirectly implied) and that fact our baseline active mitigation skills are almost always going to be far better.

Warrior self-healing from Cataclysm to MoP just took a massive hit. Massive. Arguing that it’s a success is almost as odd as this:

Defending Cata's two button rotation coupled with infinite rage and binary vengeance is something I would not be able to understand. It was a freaking joke. About the only thing it had better was AoE rotation, which is now sorta silly.

Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Concussion Blow, Shockwave, Thunderclap, Rend, Demoralizing Shout and Heroic Strike/Cleave could all be considered rotational for a single-target.

I’ve literally no idea what you’re talking about, but it’s not a Protection warrior. Arcane mage, perhaps?

That said, you’re at least right about Vengeance. It’s hard to say because there’s some stiff competition, but it’s probably the worst thing they ever did to tanking.

[kopcap]

Warrior self-healing from Cataclysm to MoP just took a massive hit. Massive.

We had self healing in Cata apart from one 3min CD, 416 weapon and FL trinket? o.O

Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Concussion Blow, Shockwave, Thunderclap, Rend, Demoralizing Shout and Heroic Strike/Cleave could all be considered rotational for a single-target.

Ye, esp Cleave.

In other news binding HS to every button and mashing SS-Dev-Dev-Dev would not even be 1k dps differnt from an "ideal" rotation. Which contrary to a popular believe did not have any Revenge in it, but did have CS weaves. But I digress. And dare you do bind HS to every button now.

[Pua]

We had self healing in Cata apart from one 3min CD, 416 weapon and FL trinket? o.O

Yes.

We could talent into Second Wind, Blood Craze and Impending Victory if we wanted to go heavy on self-healing, while Field Dressing also buffed our capabilities in this regard. We could even pick them all up in the same spec.

You know, back when we actually had options. Even more worryingly, Blood Craze (a talent we reviled for being weak throughout Cataclysm) now looks abnormally STRONG compared to tier 2.

Did you even play a Protection warrior during Cataclysm?

In other news binding HS to every button and mashing SS-Dev-Dev-Dev would not even be 1k dps differnt from an "ideal" rotation.

A wholly contrived example to obfuscate the fact you're endorsing suboptimal play - but you're also wrong.

Totally and utterly wrong.

Revenge (assuming 2/2 Improved Revenge which most took, yet wasn't mandatory) came higher than Devastate, as did Concussion Blow, Shockwave and Rend. Rend, refreshed via Blood and Thunder (another optional talent), was also a single-target DPS increase; a significant one, that put Thunderclap into the rotation.

Please stop spreading bum information in order to cover your own misunderstandings. It does nothing for the conversation, whatsoever.

[kopcap]

Sorry, you have no clue.

And this forum needs a prot mod badly, poor Lohe can't be everywhere at the same time.

[idefiler6]

And this forum needs a prot mod badly, poor Lohe can't be everywhere at the same time.

Agreed. This thread is swirling in the shitter right now.

[Puntr]

I wanted to touch this issue again, the Strenght issue.

At the moment, lvl 85 and in my level gear, i'm getting more parry from strenght than from parry itself. As consequence i'm using +STR/+Mastery gems instead of the Fine lava corals.

Just a small detail i wanted to share.

I have full BiS Prot and Arm/Furry gear and I've considered tanking in my DPS gear for the sole fact that it has like 10% more parry though I'd lose ~50k HP

Sorry, you have no clue.

And this forum needs a prot mod badly, poor Lohe can't be everywhere at the same time.

maybe with you vast wisdom of the class you could be the prot mod? Or you'd just want to be able to edit Thy's posts every time he rips wholes in your statements?

Agreed. This thread is swirling in the shitter right now.

it's swirling in the shitter b/c we have moved from a somewhat valid argument about Tier 2 talents into people thinking that having a new talent system means that their failure of the old system is wiped clean and can start again by trying to be a genius, or you get the people who thought they were geniuses and continue to think that and don't understand that they are way out in left field

You know, back when we actually had options. Even more worryingly, Blood Craze (a talent we reviled for being weak throughout Cataclysm) now looks abnormally STRONG compared to tier 2.

I would kill to have blood craze back, or give me glyph that will change Second Wind into Blood Craze, I'd sacrifice the glyph slot to have a talent that I actually want to use.

[kopcap]

Here is another way to rationalize ER vs IV.

Lets assume that healing effect of both spells is roughly equal. I actually prefer a 10%heal+10%hot/1min over 10%heal/30sec, but lets assume they are equal.
Lets assume they are both cast off CD.
Lets assume we are reserving Zerker Rage strictly for ER.

Cost of IV over a minute is 20 rage + 2 GCDs, that could had been spent towards SS, SnB or Revenge.

Cost of ER is essentially 2x Zerker Rages = 20 rage. In other words we are paying a similar rage price, but not wasting any GCD's. Yes, we are loosing some dmg. But the extent is arguably insignificant due to GCD advantage.

In addition, it is very reasonable to assume that in real conditions at least 1 every 4 Zerker Rages will be safe to cast because it will happen during ER CD.

[Pua]

Agreed. This thread is swirling in the shitter right now.

Fair.

I’ve clearly made my point and, ultimately, this thread has nothing to do with whether or not the old system was better than the new. For my part in this intercession, I want to apologise to Keb and anyone else reading to this point. Let’s get back on topic.

Puntr: Glyph of Blood Craze is something I’d be happy to take, but they won’t do it. The reason the Victory Rush glyph doesn’t affect Impending Victory (I assume) is because it would make Impending Victory “technically” better than the other two talents. It’s frustrating, because there are no directly defensive glyphs available to us and that’s a shame. Glyph of Incite will bite the dust if Deadly Calm does so maybe we’ll see a replacement, but I’m more inclined to think they’ll just ditch the glyph and be done with it.

Here is another way to rationalize ER vs IV.

Lets assume that healing effect of both spells is roughly equal. I actually prefer a 10%heal+10%hot/1min over 10%heal/30sec, but lets assume they are equal.
Lets assume they are both cast off CD.
Lets assume we are reserving Zerker Rage strictly for ER.

Cost of IV over a minute is 20 rage + 2 GCDs, that could had been spent towards SS, SnB or Revenge.

Cost of ER is essentially 2x Zerker Rages = 20 rage. In other words we are paying a similar rage price, but not wasting any GCD's. Yes, we are loosing some dmg. But the extent is arguably insignificant due to GCD advantage.

In addition, it is very reasonable to assume that in real conditions at least 1 every 4 Zerker Rages will be safe to cast because it will happen during ER CD.

I’m not sure I follow some of this. In (what I think are) simplified terms…

Impending Victory costs 20 rage and two lost GCD’s every minute. It assumes you’re armed and will net you 10% health.

Enraged Regeneration costs 60 rage or an Enrage every minute. Assume ‘zerker Rage and you’ll get 20% health back.

I think it’s fairer to argue that the latter only costs one Berserker Rage because you could use BR on cooldown if you wanted to by macroing it into your main attacks.

Both are percentage based so both are affected by Last Stand/Rallying Cry, while ER also increases the value of mastery thanks to the Enrage component of Critical Block. If you’re heavy on mastery (which most will be), ER may well end up more reliable and only cost an extant Enrage. You can also use ER while stunned/incapacitated, but you can’t block or use BR during that time so the cost is effectively a flat 60 rage in those circumstances.

I think you’re arguing that ER is the better choice between the two, something I agree with in general, but I’m finding it harder and harder to justify either over Second Wind which, don’t forget, becomes particularly strong if there are stuns or roots flying around.

Personal opinions are personal. Of course either way you cut it, our flag-carrying capabilities have taken a significant hit.

[Deleted]

could we please get BACK ON TOPIC?
thank you :-)

[Deleted]

I've always appreciated lively and active discussions, as long as you can keep your personal subjective views out of it, that is, or as long as you can actually back them up with interesting and accurate arguments. It allows to tackle every aspect of a given topic and acquire a broader understanding of it, which can only be good.

Turn down a bit your tones thus, and keep your statements argued, and we'll be fine.

PS :
Lohe can't actively babysit us these days, so let's keep things civil for now, ; )

---------- Post added 2012-09-04 at 03:37 PM ----------

I wanted to touch this issue again, the Strenght issue.

At the moment, lvl 85 and in my level gear, i'm getting more parry from strenght than from parry itself. As consequence i'm using +STR/+Mastery gems instead of the Fine lava corals.

Just a small detail i wanted to share.

I've been looking into this as well, and the only reason why I haven't changed the stat priority is because, it is a very temporally lvl-85 thing, and will not persist at lvl-90. On Beta, at lvl-90, this isn't the case anymore for example, and Parry still gives more parry chance than Strength.

[idefiler6]

Anyone else notice you can change your spec anywhere? As long as you have the mats you can change spec, glyphs, anything on a per boss basis.

[Deleted]

Anyone else notice you can change your spec anywhere? As long as you have the mats you can change spec, glyphs, anything on a per boss basis.

Yeah, that's what they had in mind when they made the new talent system.