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  1. #301
    when to starte going for haste instead of crit i am atm on 54% crit all the time ????

  2. #302
    Never......

  3. #303
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    haste inst that good, maor crit, and hit / exp caps that will booost your RPS, more then going for haste
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  4. #304
    You'll go for haste if, and only if, you cap crit, hit and expertise, and mastery stays at its current value. Arielle might be better suited to comment about this though? Also, I'm not sure about the answer to this question if we start thinking about rune of reorigination.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    haste inst that good, maor crit, and hit / exp caps that will booost your RPS, more then going for haste
    Haste is just as good for RPS as Crit (unless you're stacking Haste at the expense of Crit). It also gives you more mitigation against damage from melee swings via more T&C procs.

    Arielle might be better suited to comment about this though?
    Haste is fine (and actually good) if you don't go for it at the expense of Crit.

  6. #306
    I'm at a disadvantage compared to our other tank, a death knight, on the boss encounter Ji-Kun. If I don't use any defensive cooldowns for the second Talon Rake, I'm likely to get one-shot, whereas the other tank only needs to stack Blood Shield. Since he has Blood Shield up all the time, he doesn't need to worry about when Talon Rake is used, while I will need to try and predict when it comes, so that I can counteract it. The usage of the ability itself is unpredictable to an extent, as Ji-Kun can decide to use, say, Quills instead of a Talon Rake.

    In conjunction with this, I'd be interested to hear how other bears have chosen to counteract Talon Rake so far.

  7. #307
    Spec the reduced CD on SI and then waste for the cast he does and pop it between that. Simple mode. You have like 2.5 seconds to pop ya Cd.
    I never use a CD on first unless I have bone shield or SD up. Then always SI on second and keep Barkskin as filler.

  8. #308
    Talon rake is a 0.7 second cast. While you may be fast enough to reactively cooldown some of them if you're waiting specifically for it, it's generally at the limits of human reaction time + latency and not very guaranteed that anyone is able to do so on a consistent basis.

    When I tanked it, I popped a cd (SI or last stand) when my current talon rake was at 35 seconds remaining. 75% of the time, she hit me during that cd, 25% of the time I had to make do with barkskin after the previous cds wore off.

    Druids are indeed the worst tank for talon rake, sigh.

  9. #309
    With respect to Talon Rake, I don't think it ever was an issue for me tanking it as Guardian just using Barkskin. With the cast times of Ji-Kun in abundance, I spent quite a bit of rage stacking T&C and popping SD just before the boss starts to melee again, so my health was almost always high before Talon Rake came out. Generally, I tend to save some rage for FR or use Renewal for when I know that second big hit comes that can get my health dangerously low (like Durumu's application of the tank debuff + bleed). If push comes to shove, I'll glyph SI for the reduced cooldown, since T14 2-piece plus glyphed SI allows rotation of our major cooldowns every minute.

    While I don't want to get into a 10v25 debate, I've done both 10 and 25 of ToT normal, and I'd say tanking 25man is much easier than 10man on normals due to Vengeance levels you'll obtain. The reason I can generally pool rage and use FR to fill myself back to full on 25man is because my Vengeance is high enough to accommodate this strategy, while 10man will not give such good results (noticed it especially on Durumu, but I also noticed it on Twin Consorts, Ji-Kun, and Iron Qon). What I described above will work in a 25man environment for Ji-Kun, but it may not be as effective if used in 10man. In 10man Ji-Kun, you may have to glyph SI to achieve HP stability. Hopefully heroic versions of the fight will afford 10mans enough Vengeance to deal with tanking mechanics the same way as 25mans.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-03-11 at 11:27 PM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish View Post
    waste for the cast he does and pop it between that.
    Sorry, this just didn't make much sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Talon rake is a 0.7 second cast. While you may be fast enough to reactively cooldown some of them if you're waiting specifically for it, it's generally at the limits of human reaction time + latency and not very guaranteed that anyone is able to do so on a consistent basis.
    Indeed, this is the problem. If you're waiting specifically for it, i.e. staring at the cast bar and expecting it at any time, then you're pulling away your focus from eveything else, which is not good.

    When I tanked it, I popped a cd (SI or last stand) when my current talon rake was at 35 seconds remaining. 75% of the time, she hit me during that cd, 25% of the time I had to make do with barkskin after the previous cds wore off.
    I also tried to monitor how many seconds there were left on the Talon Rake debuff when the second Talon Rake was used, and it sometimes was at 40-45 seconds, sometimes lower. With unglyphed SI, the duration will hopefully be long enough to be up when Talon Rake is cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Generally, I tend to save some rage for FR or use Renewal for when I know that second big hit comes that can get my health dangerously low
    This doesn't help that much if that second hit kills you.

    Nevertheless, the issue with Talon Rake will gradually disappear as we gain more gear from Throne of Thunder, and thus also more health.
    Last edited by Arctagon; 2013-03-12 at 01:03 AM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    This doesn't help that much if that second hit kills you.

    Nevertheless, the issue with Talon Rake will gradually disappear as we gain more gear from Throne of Thunder, and thus also more health.
    Well how much health are you running minus potential shaman healing inflation? I'm currently sitting around 740k fully raid buffed, and even that seemed slightly overkill for Ji-kun's Talon Rake. Since there's quite a bit of actual boss melee downtime, one can feasibly gear more health for Ji-Kun and not be concerned about rage generation and whether one will have enough rage for SD.

    With respect to the Talon Rake execution time, there is a rhythm to all her abilities if I recall, and she'll reliably cast a Talon Rake immediately after one of her special abilities (pretty sure it was Quills). I'll take a look again this week since it's been a few days since we did that encounter, but if one can initiate the fight to where your second stack of Talon Rake will occur at this sweet spot, it will take most of the guessing out of when you're going to get hit. Pretty sure you'll want to be tanking second for this to work, my co-tank didn't recall if he had a similar timing occur.

    *edit* - Just looked at my log of our Ji-kun kill, and while the logs are a bit wonky in terms of keeping track of some Talon Rake applications, I confirmed that my second Talon Rake was always immediately following a Quill if I was the second tank to pick up the boss. To whom it may concern, the largest Talon Rake damage I took in 25man w/o cooldowns/absorbs/etc was about 545k (my armor is somewhere between 95-100k off the top of my head).
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-03-12 at 06:49 AM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  12. #312
    Talon rake ignores armor. My largest hit was 694k (in 25m) on my bear. My largest hit was 260k on my monk (also 25m. stagger, sigh).

  13. #313
    Sny new stat weights for 5.2 yet?

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Talon rake ignores armor. My largest hit was 694k (in 25m) on my bear. My largest hit was 260k on my monk (also 25m. stagger, sigh).
    Even if the ability is supposed to bypass armor (after looking at all of our attempts/kill, I always took less innate damage from it compared to my co-tank, the only damage reduction difference being armor), a nearly 700k Talon Rake is massive compared to anything I see in our logs. While that damage seems more plausible when getting a 3rd stack of Talon Rake, I suppose it can be chalked up to a bug. Not the first one I've seen in the raid so far.

    Regardless, try being the second tank and see if that works out with the Quills timing.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Well how much health are you running minus potential shaman healing inflation? I'm currently sitting around 740k fully raid buffed, and even that seemed slightly overkill for Ji-kun's Talon Rake. Since there's quite a bit of actual boss melee downtime, one can feasibly gear more health for Ji-Kun and not be concerned about rage generation and whether one will have enough rage for SD.
    I was under 600k health with HotW. You don't get to a passive 740k unless you stack stamina.

    With respect to the Talon Rake execution time, there is a rhythm to all her abilities if I recall, and she'll reliably cast a Talon Rake immediately after one of her special abilities (pretty sure it was Quills).
    I also noticed this, but I couldn't remember if there were any occasions the Talon Rake was cast without any of her special abilities preceding it. I've also experienced Talon Rake being cast right after a Down Draft.

    To whom it may concern, the largest Talon Rake damage I took in 25man w/o cooldowns/absorbs/etc was about 545k (my armor is somewhere between 95-100k off the top of my head).
    That's not far from the damage I took as well, although I think I took over 600k Talon Rakes sometimes, which, with my health pool, is a one-shot.

    On another note, we one-shotted Ji-Kun today, no deaths. I was better at the cooldown usage, and I had SI glyphed (was intended for Tortos' Snapping Bite, but I kept it, not sure whether it actually helped). While I'm at it, I would like to track the timer on Snapping Bite on the Tortos fight, but BigWigs doesn't seem to want to do it. Is it possible to set it up somehow? I suppose it isn't _that_ important, considering Tortos casts it very, very frequently, but could be nice to know nonetheless.

  16. #316
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I know that the amount of HP you have or need to have is depending on your healer opinions, but what would be a decent HP pool for normal mode and bosses after Horridon (not that we have killed it yet)?

    I had 570k HP with priest buffed, fiest food and stam. flask. It gets higher if we have a Shaman along. I feel that I could have more, but I don't see that I have any gems to switch for stamina w/o loosing my expertise/hit/crit... Any advice (armory link in sig)? I don't have any stam. trinkets.
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  17. #317
    With your current gear, you have more health than me, and I haven't had that many problems so far. Just don't be mindless with cooldown usage, and don't hesitate to ask for external cooldowns if your own aren't available. Of course, you'd want to do this no matter how much health you have.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Arctagon View Post
    With your current gear, you have more health than me, and I haven't had that many problems so far. Just don't be mindless with cooldown usage, and don't hesitate to ask for external cooldowns if your own aren't available. Of course, you'd want to do this no matter how much health you have.
    This. So much this.

    Managing externals is something we're going to see tanks being forced to learn to do in ToT.

  19. #319
    Oh, boy. I usually never rank at all, and today I ranked 11 on Lei Shen. I personally don't care that much about rankings, and I know it has much to do with not that many guilds having downed Lei Shen yet, but I still think it is quite cool. :3

  20. #320
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I have a question. What should I change in order to better spend my time solo tanking Malakk (we use 2 tanks, but keeping them stacked and one tank on certain boss makes things easier (me on full time malakk, paladin on the other 2 (ma'li and sul) as trivilalising makes thing slot easier, specially after you tell people 5 times after each wipe that they shouldn't have done this or why the ef they switched soo late)?

    The fact is that even if I focus on not using FR or Maul, I just at some points don't have enough rage to keep SD up. Sure it is normal that I have to wait 9 sec for the SD to recharge, but having not enough rage is not good at all. I did drop my stacks several times.

    I did read from someone else post that more haste is good for stable regen. I do have very low haste. I was thinking myself of removing the dodge > crit reforge from shoulders or replacing that with dodge > haste reforge. And maybe drop the mastery > crit reforge on both of my trinkets and wep.

    Any help here? As I truly feel that I need more rage income, to reliably keep SD up and shoo the resto away from monk, so I can have the dodge from him and ofc I should go and get my dodge trinket from Shado.pan Assault. Or am I just doing everything wrong to have those problems.

    Logs (I know my Cenarion Ward uptime should be better (I'm still learning it to use it creatively)) from the longest attempts when the bosses where stacked together and Armoy.
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