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  1. #741
    then i wonder if this wil give any issues, as it would mena that while other tanks scale on thier HC gear, bears will stop a big portion of thier scaling when they completed normal mode
    never mind forgot the formula against lvl 93 bosses. so will be hard to reach. Sry about that.

    Not usable by druids. And not even the best geared druids have more than ~67% crit (at least in US/EU) which is still a pretty long ways to go to cap. Unupgraded N SoO gear is only 4 item levels higher than double upgraded TF gear.
    Of course its useable by druids maybe not the proc.

    Even I have 68% crit and im far from best geared.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-07-18 at 11:52 AM.

  2. #742
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i currently got 61% crit, hit / exp capped
    on ilvl 535
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  3. #743
    Hmm, my bad, seems the AMR BiS I was looking at was gemming some haste for some reason.

    As far as I can tell, highest crit you can possibly get in full 553s (which means crit on every single piece of gear except for second trinket, full crit enchants, capacitive meta, worgen, and crit elixir) is 86.26%.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-07-18 at 12:50 PM.

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  4. #744

    Crit Diminishing Returns

    At what point do we start hitting diminishing returns for crit rating and need to switch to a more agi/mastery focus in order to maximize our stat usage? Is there any point where not 100% stacking crit is more viable for heroic tanking?

    Completely unbuffed in bear form I have:
    111,194 armor (70.62% Damage Reduction)
    19.28% dodge chance
    14,858 crit rating (51.46% crit)
    4,088 mastery rating (29.63% mastery)
    Hit capped and Expertise capped
    Last edited by Donjuanatron; 2013-07-18 at 03:04 PM.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Donjuanatron View Post
    At what point do we start hitting diminishing returns for crit rating and need to switch to a more agi/mastery focus in order to maximize our stat usage? Is there any point where not 100% stacking crit is more viable for heroic tanking?

    Completely unbuffed in bear form I have:
    111,194 armor (70.62% Damage Reduction)
    19.28% dodge chance
    14,858 crit rating (51.46% crit)
    4,088 mastery rating (29.63% mastery)
    Hit capped and Expertise capped
    After 79% crit haste is a better stat for RPS but still the best one for DPS.
    So if you reach that raidbuffed you go for mastery or haste but not reachable this tier so 100% crit is the way to go.

    And as far as I know mastery is ahead of dodge now, I believe it was quite even before the mastery buff.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-07-18 at 03:43 PM.

  6. #746
    Mastery has kind of been ahead of Dodge forever, even before they buffed it the first time in T14 it was higher EH while the difference in TDR was basically a wash in comparison. And you still have the option to go Crit or Stamina after Crit capping, in addition to Haste or Mastery, they just all serve different purposes.

    Crit: Small amount of RPS, lots of DPS
    Haste: Small amount of DPS, lots of RPS
    Mastery: Physical EH
    Stamina: Total EH (also ~17% stronger than it is now thanks to the Bear Form buff) and some fairly negligible amount of DPS due to a raised Vengeance cap
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-07-18 at 04:00 PM.

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  7. #747
    And you still have the option to go Crit or Stamina after Crit capping, in addition to Haste or Mastery, they just all serve different purposes.
    Crit still might be our best dps stat but Im still a bit oldschool tanks should always focus on rps/dmgmit first. After crit cap you should go for mastery/haste, the extra dps gained from crit is not that hight considering most of our dps comes from vengeance.

    But the most think I hope for is that blizzard stops putting hit on every good item. its always hit/crit. Hoping for a random drop weapon when you didnt kill leishen yet really sucks.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Crit still might be our best dps stat but Im still a bit oldschool tanks should always focus on rps/dmgmit first.
    Depends on your raid setup, for 25m sure but 10m benefits from tanks putting out as much DPS as they can muster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    ...the extra dps gained from crit is not that hight considering most of our dps comes from vengeance.
    I don't follow your thinking. Vengeance and crit work in tandem. You're not sacrificing crit to gain more vengeance nor do you have to sacrifice vengeance to add more crit.

  9. #749
    I don't follow your thinking. Vengeance and crit work in tandem. You're not sacrificing crit to gain more vengeance nor do you have to sacrifice vengeance to add more crit.
    No didnt mean it like that.

    After the crit softcap, crit gives you mostly dps while haste gives you even more rps(which is nice with our new 4piece). After crit softcap you should go more into haste more rps and t&C proccs. vengeance still provides us with the highest dps boost, so going for crit means going for dps only while haste provides other stuff too. This might be a personal opinion but we are still tanks, sure we do alot of dps when at decent vengeance levels, but first comes mitigating dmg or healing it.

    And in this case it doenst matter if you are 10m or 25m,

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    But the most think I hope for is that blizzard stops putting hit on every good item. its always hit/crit. Hoping for a random drop weapon when you didnt kill leishen yet really sucks.
    Leather items are itemized extremely diversely for next tier and bears can get basically any stats they could possibly want in almost every slot. You won't have to take hit if you don't want to, given that you have access to all of the bosses' loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    No didnt mean it like that.

    After the crit softcap, crit gives you mostly dps while haste gives you even more rps(which is nice with our new 4piece). After crit softcap you should go more into haste more rps and t&C proccs. vengeance still provides us with the highest dps boost, so going for crit means going for dps only while haste provides other stuff too. This might be a personal opinion but we are still tanks, sure we do alot of dps when at decent vengeance levels, but first comes mitigating dmg or healing it.

    And in this case it doenst matter if you are 10m or 25m,
    While your DPS is indeed very highly dependent on your level of vengeance, critical strike chance and vengeance scale multiplicatively to produce your final damage output. Having high vengeance means your crit's effectiveness in scaling your damage increases as well so it's not fair to imply that you can get away with vengeance "carrying" your damage when stacking crit is equally effective no matter how much you have.

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  11. #751
    While your DPS is indeed very highly dependent on your level of vengeance, critical strike chance and vengeance scale multiplicatively to produce your final damage output. Having high vengeance means your crit's effectiveness in scaling your damage increases as well so it's not fair to imply that you can get away with vengeance "carrying" your damage when stacking crit is equally effective no matter how much you have.
    yes thats all true, not saying that dmg is unimportant. But after 79% crit is almost only a dmg stat. And I just think gemming/reforging a stat that only for dps as a tank is not the way to go. Haste also increases your dps a bit but it also increases rps, and seen in the overall picture dps/rps/mitigation, and again the extra mauls you get also increases your dmg. Could be completely wrong about that, and I know alot of people like to only focus on dps. But again beeing able to keep up SD and use more T&C and get more, not only increases your dps but also your survivability. I dont gem crit cause it gives me more dmg but I would say im qutie good at using rage and I survive longer and better with more rage. But this whole discussion is not about how good crit is its more about how good it is after softcap.

    Dont know exactly but I think there is a haste cap for pala aswell and I quess they will go for mastery after that cause crit gives them only dmg.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    yes thats all true, not saying that dmg is unimportant. But after 79% crit is almost only a dmg stat. And I just think gemming/reforging a stat that only for dps as a tank is not the way to go. Haste also increases your dps a bit but it also increases rps, and seen in the overall picture dps/rps/mitigation, and again the extra mauls you get also increases your dmg. Could be completely wrong about that, and I know alot of people like to only focus on dps. But again beeing able to keep up SD and use more T&C and get more, not only increases your dps but also your survivability. I dont gem crit cause it gives me more dmg but I would say im qutie good at using rage and I survive longer and better with more rage. But this whole discussion is not about how good crit is its more about how good it is after softcap.

    Dont know exactly but I think there is a haste cap for pala aswell and I quess they will go for mastery after that cause crit gives them only dmg.
    Just a paladin tank with a guardian alt trolling around these Class Forums. Paladins have a 50% haste soft cap. Personally, once i reach that cap, I'll most likely go for crit for the dps boost. Mastery smooths out incoming damage, but paladins are currently one of the least spikiest tanks so that's not really an issue. As you said, crit is a straight DPS boost which doesn't help us defensively in any way, and avoidance stats can have some use in multi-add fights for more AS procs.

    Anyhoo - back on topic. I've recently started playing guardian and it's a bit of a drastic change from paladin tanking. There are a lot more procs and Rage management seems a bit trickier than Holy Power management. Is it worth using every TnC proc? What kind of uptimes should I be shooting for with Savage Defense?

    Any general tips would be much appreciated as well! Thanks.

  13. #753
    Is it worth using every TnC proc? What kind of uptimes should I be shooting for with Savage Defense?
    T&C: Get an addon or a weakaura to tell you how much T&C has been applied to a target. It stacks, so it's entirely possible to stack a higher value than what the next melee swing would be. In those cases you wouldn't spend a T&C proc because it would be completed wasted.

    SD should be as close to 100% uptime as you can get while a boss is actively swinging at you. The exceptions to this are if you need to time it for a specific ability (Gara'jal, Tortos), or you gain no real advantage by using it (Stone Guard, Lei Shi).

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Is it worth using every TnC proc?
    To elaborate a little on what Arielle said:

    As you know you have three different rage spenders and they all have different uses depending on the context. A rough outline of how you should prioritize your rage spending:
    1. FRing when you're at dangerously low amounts of HP.
    2. Preventing lethal burst damage:
      • Using SD to attempt to dodge a large hit (Snapping Bite on Tortos).
      • Using T&C to mitigate melee damage directly before or after a predictable damage spike (Triple Puncture on Horridon).
      • Using FR to heal up after a predictable damage spike (Fire Slam on Dark Animus).
    3. Keeping SD uptime as high as possible when relevant. Delaying the use of an SD charge for a bit after your SD falls off is fine, but given you're actively tanking something for a long enough period of time your goal should generally be to empty out on SD charges before you stop tanking. You also don't want to cap charges if possible.
    4. Using T&C to smooth you or your fellow tank's incoming damage.
    5. Using FR to smooth your incoming damage.

    So as you can see, there's a lot of things that can come ahead of T&C in priority while you are tanking, although you will most likely be using as many T&C procs as you possibly can while you're not tanking to help your co-tank(s).

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  15. #755
    Is it worth using every TnC proc?
    TnC procs average every 7-8 seconds(when I had ilvl 532). So in a perfect world, after 42 seconds(after that you cant have 100% uptime on SD) you could use TnC after SD falls of to absorb the next melee before SD charge is back up.

    IF you want to make perfect use of it, dont forget its stacks, (the highest I can remember was about 570k on horridon hc.), if you monitor the "absorb" with weakauras and you already have a 200k-300k absorb shield you can delay the next one till it drops.

    The amount TnC aborbs is about the size of your vengeance.


    What kind of uptimes should I be shooting for with Savage Defense?
    the maximum uptime on a solo tanked bossfights is about 66%, depends on length. but with three charges the time you can have it up is 42 seconds before it drops and you dont have a charge ready, which is almost the length you tank in a one boss two tank szenario.

  16. #756
    Hey guys,

    My guild's doing an alt/pug run this Monday and I'm bringing my Guardian to tank it (hit 90 last week, 488 ilvl now). What's a good starting point for health to have at 25M normal where the bosses do hit pretty hard? Unfortunately I don't have a stamina trinket but I'm able to pull about 615k with a stam flask & spring rolls. 7.5 and 15 exp too. Think that would be enough (we only have one main healer, too, ugh) or should I gem stamina instead of expertise?

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...andor/advanced
    Last edited by trystero; 2013-07-21 at 03:27 AM.

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Hey guys,

    My guild's doing an alt/pug run this Monday and I'm bringing my Guardian to tank it (hit 90 last week, 488 ilvl now). What's a good starting point for health to have at 25M normal where the bosses do hit pretty hard? Unfortunately I don't have a stamina trinket but I'm able to pull about 615k with a stam flask & spring rolls. 7.5 and 15 exp too. Think that would be enough (we only have one main healer, too, ugh) or should I gem stamina instead of expertise?

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...andor/advanced
    How much health you "need" will depend on what your job is and your healers. It's doable with your gear (overall you're slightly undergeared according to Blizz), you might just need some cooldown management to help with the harder hitting stuff (I'm thinking along the lines of Horridon when he enrages and if you have high puncture stacks during the encounters, things like that). Just ensure you have enough rage generation to reliably use SD/FR when you want/need. I had a druid alt that started tanking normal ToT with a 497 ilvl and 3k more stamina in caster form than you (also a bit more crit/haste) and didn't have trouble clearing ToT on 10man, but the areas where the damage translates higher in 25man would be managable still with a good healer team and proper cooldown usage.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-07-21 at 05:55 AM.
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  18. #758
    So we want to try Dark Animus heroic today.

    Has any guardian done the zerg strat yet? and can give me any tips?

  19. #759
    High Overlord Passive Apathy's Avatar
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    I'm assuming you mean to two tank it, generally I like to keep SD up on myself as much as possible and when I can't keep it up 100%, pop SI and kill one then grab another golem off a healer when I'm back to 3 charges. NV is great because of the ~450k vengeance you have from holding two linked golems and you get to use it twice, also the DPS meta is absoutely bonkers because of the vengeance. Avoiding fonts and not getting agro on animus is pretty much all you have to look out for.

    To clarify, my role in the fight is to hold two golems and go to town on animus, our pally tank pulls 3 golems at the start and holds animus the entire time.
    Last edited by Passive Apathy; 2013-07-21 at 08:41 AM.

  20. #760
    are you using two healer or 3?

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