Dark Apotheosis a waste of resouces?

[Hellfury]

I was already sceptically when they introduced this, letting a pure class, that was always DPS the ability to tank. Warlocks aren't strangers to tanking from normal dungeons to Illidan demon form with Leotheras and Kael Belf mage on the mix, but despise all this, the glyph and direction seemed strange because they separated the feral tree on druids for the sake of balance, so introducing it to warlocks felt weird.

Nevertheless after the shock and awe at very start of beta were DA was actually very OP, this gave alot of ppl false hopes. GC said that this would be just for funsies and small utility, warlocks would never tank, countless nerfs were made to both survivability and damage making it kinda whats the point of it, the real fatality to some warlock dreams to main tank was perhaps the removal of pve crit imunity and introduction of new vengeance mechanics to the "real" tank specs

Now this is on live and I wonder the hell were they thinking? Any spec with Supremacy Voidlord tanks better than DA itself. The survability its better, its easier to heal pets than heal ourselfs, DA threat and damage is rubish and not even a real taunt was given. Dont confuse what I just said with Voidlord is too good, nerf it. Iam very glad that FINALY they gave us a real tanky pet, its the fact that DA its rubbish

There are some delusional warlocks and rerolers out there still, but sorry to be blunt, Warlocks wont MT/OT in MOP in any half-serious raid group. Given the fact that aggro will be hard to hold with inexistent TPS and real tank classes can probably double the damage of a DA warlock because of vengeance and that will mater in MOP tight enrages Some ppl are tanking normal DS and thats fine, but DS is no benchmark anymore 35% nerf and healers with almost infinite mana regen.

You may accuse me of anti-tank movment, and your right because I know that if they made Demo a true main tank and if they focused on that it would probably come at the cost of DPSing as demon. The option would have to pass by a 4th spec but thats out of the scope for this expansion now.

Not much stuff they can do to make DA salvageable now. Perhaps increasing damage in it its one of them, giving the crit imunity its other. Even with this we wouldn't become Main tanks because of vengeance and no active mitigation(Fury ward its not enough)

DA is a good idea on paper but failed, bad foresight and bad design, Blizzard are always adamantly saying that if they do X they cant do Y, well they did DA, I have no idea what Y could be but I believe that Y could had been something better than DA.

[Xelnath]

This isn't a helpful post for anyone.

[Hellfury]

This isn't a helpful post for anyone.

Its my view of the DA shenanigans, and I didnt directed at the Blizzard rather at MMOc warlock community as my opinion on the subject wherever some agree or disagree

[PickleballAce]

If it's fun and it's balanced, I don't see what the problem is.

It may not function perfectly, but there's a good foundation in place for them to expand upon DA's usefulness.

[Inactivity]

My view:

1) As I heard (correct me if I'm wrong Xelnath), originally warlock tanking was planned for MOP but scrapped in early alpha as it was believed it would "not be popular." By the time TPTB realized that it was far more popular than expected, it was too late.

2) Most people like Demonology DPS (or most of it), including myself. Most people hate destruction. Through the history of Cataclysm (which is when I've played, so forgive me if I don't know Vanilla through Wrath) there was always a "red-headed stepchild" spec that was literal deadweight. This spec is now destruction in MOP.

Solution: Get rid of destruction and mix the (very few) better parts of it into demonology/affliction, then replace it with a tank spec.

Most warlocks that I know of are heavy demonology/affliction fans anyway, and all the destruction "fanboys" do is just QQ (correctly) about how bad the spec is, so we can finally listen to them and remove it, at the (admittedly very marginal) benefit of demo, affliction, and tanking.

[Zharradan]

i really hate the alpha testers.

[Inactivity]

i really hate the alpha testers.

I know right? I had a ton of words to say about that... but damn... all I could say in Xelnath's thread is "unfortunate."

[alexw]

My view:

1) As I heard (correct me if I'm wrong Xelnath), originally warlock tanking was planned for MOP but scrapped in early alpha as it was believed it would "not be popular." By the time TPTB realized that it was far more popular than expected, it was too late.

2) Most people like Demonology DPS (or most of it), including myself. Most people hate destruction. Through the history of Cataclysm (which is when I've played, so forgive me if I don't know Vanilla through Wrath) there was always a "red-headed stepchild" spec that was literal deadweight. This spec is now destruction in MOP.

Solution: Get rid of destruction and mix the (very few) better parts of it into demonology/affliction, then replace it with a tank spec.

Most warlocks that I know of are heavy demonology/affliction fans anyway, and all the destruction "fanboys" do is just QQ (correctly) about how bad the spec is, so we can finally listen to them and remove it, at the (admittedly very marginal) benefit of demo, affliction, and tanking.

In truth there is no need to remove any warlock spec. If the devs at any future point are going to introduce a warlock tanking spec it would be better to add a 4th spec and make that the tank one. Given that they broke the fourth spec barrier with druids I see no reason it can't be done the same way with warlocks.

My own thoughts on this is that the pures vs hyrbid design is one that has long since been won by the hybrids, and pures don't really belong in a more modern wow. In future content where new classes are being considered it would be better to add some tank/healing/ranged/melee to the pures to fill in whatever they are missing. So warlock tanks, mage healers, hunter melee. Personally I think this would have much better received by the current player base than the addition of the monk class is, as a design goal for mop.

[Zinnin]

Not everything added to the game has to be top level pvp \ pve viable. To me DA is a fun tool to mess around with when content is dead and I need something to waste my time on. To other lock tank enthusiasts, maybe it something they want to push in there guild that is more casual.

Who knows, maybe in the future they will revisit allowing warlocks to gain a 'guardian' spec and it will have been because the groundwork was lain by this glyph.

[PickleballAce]

I wouldn't be all that surprised if "fourth specs for all" is the big class addition for the next expansion, and this could pave the way for a true Demon Hunter tank spec for Locks.

[Inactivity]

In truth there is no need to remove any warlock spec. If the devs at any future point are going to introduce a warlock tanking spec it would be better to add a 4th spec and make that the tank one. Given that they broke the fourth spec barrier with druids I see no reason it can't be done the same way with warlocks.

The main reason I suggest removing a spec and keeping 3 specs isn't so much that I want a tank spec (if that's all I wanted I would advocate a 4th spec), but because I am also concerned about our 3 DPS trees. Better to have 3 awesome specs than 4 diluted specs. Druids can get away with 4 specs because literally, the 4 specs do different things.

My own thoughts on this is that the pures vs hyrbid design is one that has long since been won by the hybrids, and pures don't really belong in a more modern wow.

I agree with this but for several reasons:

1) Hybrids are just as good at DPS as pures, so there's no point to being "only" able to DPS

2) More important, the fact is that pures all have 3 specs that do literally the same thing. It's a problem that GC has even addressed many times (despite doing nothing about it). It would be different if, say, we had a melee and ranged DPS spec instead of 3 identical specs (3 caster, 3 caster, 3 melee, 3 physical ranged). Even minor differences can be nice - for instance, at least mages can choose a pet spec (frost) and two non-pet specs.

That means that either the specs are redundant or they have to be weak at something, meaning hybrids are better, ironically, because they have less DPS specs. This is a big reason I'd actually advocate getting rid of a spec and replacing it with a tank spec rather than just adding a 4th spec - not only would it let us do more in game (as hybrids), but it would give Blizz a chance to fix our DPS specs.


One DPS spec is balanced and versatile.
Two DPS specs make company.
Three, that do the same thing, is just a stupid crowd.


[edit]

It's rather telling when pures (hunter, warlock, even rogue) are weak due to inherent design flaws and inability to handle mechanics whereas hybrids tend to be weak due to undertuning. One problem is easily fixed, the other has been struggled with since the beginning of the game.

[Jessicka]

I don't think it's really possible to waste resources on experimentation. As much as I fundamentally disagree with the idea of changing an existing 'Pure' into a 'Hybrid' class, the experimentation itself will have given them ideas on how to make other existing tanks better, ideas for future classes they opt to bring in to the game, as well as test out new mechanics that could be implemented for the class in it's 'Pure' state. And so long as new classes continue to be added to the game, I don't see any reason to change the existing Pure classes into Hybrids, since those new classes will always offer the blank canvass required to implement those new ideas without the obvious problems with 'flavour', playstyle, community uproar and other ties that would cause the design team to be held back from getting too radical.

As for Inactivity's post, I think the MoP design has shown the idea that 'three specs that do the same thing', can be implemented onto one class, work differently enough as to feel completely different when played, offer different strengths and weaknesses at given tasks and yet not have any gaping holes to make them suck so much at something you desperately need to respec every other encounter.

[Last Starfighter]

It's just a glyph. That's all it is. For fun. Glyphs aren't supposed to be game changing anymore.

[Harsesis]

First off I'm glad we can't tank. I did not roll a pure dps class so I could tank. If you all want to tank so badly then go play a tank class. Second it wasn't a waste of resources because we got the cool meta wings out of it. I would rather then turn it into a minor glyph and just give us the wings.

[PickleballAce]

If you all want to tank so badly then go play a tank class.

A lot of us have tanks (I've got a modestly raid geared Blood DK and a Prot Pally ready on short notice)....but that is, of course, not the point in people liking the idea of Warlock tanking.



(HINT: It's because people would like to tank on their Warlock)

[Deleted]

Why does everyone say destro is dead? I've seen the sims, but currently it's pretty strong

[KrazyK923]

I view the live version of DA as a damage reduction period for PvP (Or I guess for PvE). Popping DA enables Twilight Ward to then absorb all schools of damage, providing another shield. Taking the shield talent provides them with ANOTHER shield. Its a really, really good "oshit" moment where you can absorb ~175-200k of damage.

[Gratlim]

Short answer: PVP!

1) put on your best pvp gear
2) reforge everything but crit to mastery
3) take: dark regeneration / mortal coil / soul link (+20% hp with GoS) /GoS (Felguard for charge, you will need it)
4) glyph: 20% HP regen on kills, soul siphon, DA.
5) tag BG, pop stones, sac felguard, activate DA and go melt some faces

We just gained the most durable pvp spec we ever har since BC. GJ Blizz and thank you for this glyph

[Inactivity]

A lot of us have tanks (I've got a modestly raid geared Blood DK and a Prot Pally ready on short notice)....but that is, of course, not the point in people liking the idea of Warlock tanking.

Exactly. I've done 8/8HM now (accomplishment, I know right?) as all three roles now. Thanks to some changes (which I think are good) people have really been encouraged to try multiple roles/classes out instead of just sticking to one/two toons, which is truly a change that I think has been for the better.

Multiple people even on tank forums have voiced their support for a fourth spec and even some who were against warlock tanks have recently, yes, tried out DA in dungeons with their guild (ironically as much of a supporter as I am of a true tank spec, I have not used DA in groups at all).

Honestly as people have stated, the "pure DPS" concept is rather outdated. As GC himself has said, most pures now really just play the same in all three specs. Warlocks, with this expansion, got 3 different playstyles, but really, most people don't like destro and demonology is seen as lacking, so we really only have 2 (one, and then two halves). It would be one thing if pure DPS actually had several modes (for instance, a ranged spec and a melee spec) but the fact is they really only play the same role in groups - either ranged or melee, with hunters providing some kiting perhaps, etc. and perhaps specs being buff-bots, which lately was removed in Mists.

Many players who like to DPS only are able to do so on their hybrids. Guilds will recognize when players only want to DPS on their priest, for instance, and for the large part you will only be expected to DPS. Same goes for arms/fury warriors.

Some of the 10m guilds (and some 25m guilds) will require you know all specs of your class (no matter what role), or at least multiple roles if you play a hybrid. But those are the same type of guilds that, if you play a pure, will probably require you to have multiple-role alts anyway.

[Inshabel]

I like it a lot for soloing, I would have like it a lot for tanknig as well, but you take what you can get