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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    The question stands. Why do you have to go into an anonymous society and go like "Look at me, I'm a girl!"? Sexism might be a problem in real life, but it shouldn't be in games. And I don't report people that are rude to women, I report people when their talk is offensive, no matter the gender of the offended.
    Sure, there are people who do that, but most women tend to not behave that way (in my experience anyway). My guild in WoW didn't know that I was a girl until almost a year after I started playing when I finally got around to buying a working headset, and as soon as I spoke in vent, sure enough, the banter began. Of course, I don't really care as much as other people do because I'm pretty light-hearted as it is, but it's hardly an anonymous setting.

  2. #42
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 08nolanni View Post
    These boys wouldn't dare make these threats if their identity was revealed.
    Well, to be fair, they probably would, by and large.

    The problem is that there's no consequences at all, regardless of whether or not people know who they are.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Calzaeth's Avatar
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    I want to hug him for this:
    Anonymity is a privilege, not a right. Anonymity is a double-edged sword. A limited number of people need it in certain circumstances: children, crime victims, whistleblowers, people discussing their medical conditions, political dissidents in repressive regimes. But those people normally don't misuse their anonymity to abuse others; they're protecting themselves from abuse. I think the default setting in all online forums that are not intended for people at risk should require real names. After a user has demonstrated that they are a grown-up, then offer them the privilege of using a pseudonym. And take it away forever if they misuse it. I haven't used a nickname for years except in one place where all the readers know who I am anyway. Has it made me more careful about what I say? You bet. Is that a good thing? Damn right it is.
    I have been saying for years that there are plenty of legitimately good reasons for anonymity, and none of them involves free-to-join internet forums or social sites. Be a man, stand behind your words.

    I agree with the general intent he had, though, because it applies to more than just sexism. The well-adjusted ones should always do their utmost to fix the fuck-ups. Kick them out of your dungeon, delete their hateful posts from your Facebook-page, lean across the aisle and say "Shut up, kid.". Treat them like a flat tire: Change asap.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    I don't think you're having so much a thought but rather complete mental diarrhea all over the internet and your keyboard and it's not pretty or even logical.

  4. #44
    Mechagnome Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Exactly. You shouldn't care.

    The problem is, there's people who do, and then act on that care when they get the chance, and thus find ways to make the game experience for those "other" people miserable.
    So. Don't. Talk. About. It.

    "I'm not saying pretend to be something your not, I'm saying shut the hell up if it's not relevant. I'm not playing a video game for your life story, I'm playing it to crush the skulls of bad guys."

    What is so hard to get here? 90% of the people I've seen mocked online for x characteristic have brought it on themselves by bringing it up when it was irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-06 at 03:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    Sure, there are people who do that, but most women tend to not behave that way (in my experience anyway). My guild in WoW didn't know that I was a girl until almost a year after I started playing when I finally got around to buying a working headset, and as soon as I spoke in vent, sure enough, the banter began. Of course, I don't really care as much as other people do because I'm pretty light-hearted as it is, but it's hardly an anonymous setting.
    So find another guild.
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  5. #45
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    So. Don't. Talk. About. It.
    It seems I linked the Family Guy skit for nothing. Not talking about it does not get rid of the problem. The problem is still there, and still festers, and then if through innocent conversation, or even simply through hopping on vent for ease of conversation, somebody finds out, god forbid, the truth, the problem rears it's ugly head.

    You REALLY are comfortable living in a world where it's extremely suggested that women hide their gender, that everybody hides their sexuality and race, simply out of fear of abuse? Why can't we live in a world where the abuse and fear are actively put down and killed like the cancer it is?

    We live in a world where thousands, maybe millions, of people refuse to play online games, purely because of the peurile communities that have been fostered within them.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-06 at 02:25 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  6. #46
    "Just don't say you'er a women/gay/black/asian/purple" is the same as "You deserve to be raped for dressing like that"

    Unlike the real world though everyone should be safe in the virtual world. People should be free to be who they are without harm or fear of being harmed.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    And pray tell, when I play a video game... why should I care about your gender? Or race? Or sexual preferences?

    I'm not saying pretend to be something your not, I'm saying shut the hell up if it's not relevant. I'm not playing a video game for your life story, I'm playing it to crush the skulls of bad guys.

    Good job on assuming I'm white, btw.
    you shouldnt care, thats the whole freaking point. its the people who DO care that are the problem, and if you dont care then the article is clearly not aimed at you. its aimed at the people who can't see a girl online without making retarded make me a sammich jokes at her. this is a social game where a huge part of the experience is building friendships and relationships with our teammates, and how can anybody do this if they are forced to lie about themselves, if they can't even say who they are or whats going on in their life without being ragged on by people who want to enforce the straight white boy status quo?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    "What's the big deal? It's harmless banter. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the game." To start with, it's our game, not yours, and we get to decide what's acceptable behavior. You meet our standards or you get out. Apart from that, nothing that is done with intent to cause hurt is harmless. The online abuse I have seen goes way beyond banter. Threats are not harmless, they are criminal acts.
    "i'll let you play with my football, but only if you never make a joke about females, gays, race, religion, or referees"
    "but ... the banter?"
    "sorry, i am in control because it's my football"

    ...

  9. #49
    Funny thing is I have more female friends from MMOs than I do males. It seems not being a douche makes people like me.

  10. #50
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranberries View Post
    "i'll let you play with my football, but only if you never make a joke about females, gays, race, religion, or referees"
    "but ... the banter?"
    "sorry, i am in control because it's my football"

    ...
    More like "If you make those jokes, I'm kicking you off of my football field, and you can go play somewhere else."

    And "somewhere else" usually means that you go to the bad side of town where the fields aren't properly cared for. Probably have mud pits all over them.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  11. #51
    Mechagnome Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    It seems I linked the Family Guy skit for nothing. Not talking about it does not get rid of the problem. The problem is still there, and still festers, and then if through innocent conversation, or even simply through hopping on vent for ease of conversation, somebody finds out, god forbid, the truth, the problem rears it's ugly head.

    You REALLY are comfortable living in a world where it's extremely suggested that women hide their gender, that everybody hides their sexuality and race, simply out of fear of abuse? Why can't we live in a world where the abuse and fear are actively put down and killed like the cancer it is?

    We live in a world where thousands, maybe millions, of people refuse to play online games, purely because of the peurile communities that have been fostered within them.
    How many times are you going to trim my posts so you can parrot the same lines over and over?

    Please explain why it is relevant in a video game what gender someone is.

    Then explain why if you are in a situation where it is pretty damn easy to remove yourself, you would stay there and complain about the situation.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-06 at 03:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HollerTH View Post
    "Just don't say you'er a women/gay/black/asian/purple" is the same as "You deserve to be raped for dressing like that"

    Unlike the real world though everyone should be safe in the virtual world. People should be free to be who they are without harm or fear of being harmed.
    I don't go into PvP and start talking about best construction practices and safety in the workplace.

    Can you see how this works, or are you going to draw more idiotic comparisons?
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  12. #52
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    Please explain why it is relevant in a video game what gender someone is.
    It's not. I never said it's not. What I said is that, you shouldn't have to tip-toe around trying to hide it, either.

    The problem is that is can come up in a social environment, and then people will be treated poorly because of it.

    You shouldn't have to actively try to hide these things. Some people are even proud about being who they are, god forbid!

    Unrelated to what I'm saying here, this video exemplifies what I'm talking about (watch the whole video, it gets quite interesting):

    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-06 at 02:34 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  13. #53
    Mechagnome Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellosaltygoodness View Post
    you shouldnt care, thats the whole freaking point. its the people who DO care that are the problem, and if you dont care then the article is clearly not aimed at you. its aimed at the people who can't see a girl online without making retarded make me a sammich jokes at her. this is a social game where a huge part of the experience is building friendships and relationships with our teammates, and how can anybody do this if they are forced to lie about themselves, if they can't even say who they are or whats going on in their life without being ragged on by people who want to enforce the straight white boy status quo?
    So don't associate with people like that? I'm fairly sure that it was claimed these people are a minority - it's not hard to escape them in a video game.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-06 at 03:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    It's not. I never said it's not. What I said is that, you shouldn't have to tip-toe around trying to hide it, either.

    The problem is that is can come up in a social environment, and then people will be treated poorly because of it.

    You shouldn't have to actively try to hide these things.
    You shouldn't actively broadcast it either. It's not relevant.
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    Now here's a novel idea... don't broadcast your gender in a setting where it is supposed to be irrelevant.
    This. Girls, shut up on vent. If you have to say anything, get your brother/husband to say it for you. Little boys, feel free to behave as if you're 9 year olds in the school bathroom laughing because someone said "dick". By all means, don't do anything that might give us the idea that you're a girl, or you deserve to be generally abused.

    </sarcasm>

    Isn't that something like "she wanted to be raped"? Because "supposed to be irrelevant" obviously isn't true, not when the slightest hint of being non-15-to-25-year-old-straight-male results in torrents of verbal abuse. For that matter, being a 15- to 25-year-old male who doesn't get his ideas on women from watching porn also gets roundly abused.

  15. #55
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    You shouldn't actively broadcast it either. It's not relevant.
    And they should have the freedom to broadcast it, if they so choose, without being harassed. Sure, harass them for doing it. Tell them you don't care about what they are. But that's entirely different.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  16. #56
    Mechagnome Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krsqk View Post
    This. Girls, shut up on vent. If you have to say anything, get your brother/husband to say it for you. Little boys, feel free to behave as if you're 9 year olds in the school bathroom laughing because someone said "dick". By all means, don't do anything that might give us the idea that you're a girl, or you deserve to be generally abused.

    </sarcasm>

    Isn't that something like "she wanted to be raped"? Because "supposed to be irrelevant" obviously isn't true, not when the slightest hint of being non-15-to-25-year-old-straight-male results in torrents of verbal abuse. For that matter, being a 15- to 25-year-old male who doesn't get his ideas on women from watching porn also gets roundly abused.
    So a black guy hangs around KKK members and decides he doesn't like the racism.

    Does he:

    a) Continue to hang around the KKK members

    or

    b) Not hang around KKK members

    MY GOD HOW COMPLEX WAS THAT?
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Unrelated to what I'm saying here, this video exemplifies what I'm talking about (watch the whole video, it gets quite interesting):
    The video shows someone raging.. soo? He most likely would've raged that way at anybody who beat him. But since the player is a girl (named GirlGoneGamer.. seriously?) I should suddenly care more?

  18. #58
    Mechagnome Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    And they should have the freedom to broadcast it, if they so choose, without being harassed. Sure, harass them for doing it. Tell them you don't care about what they are. But that's entirely different.
    That is how a child sees the world. If you are in an uncomfortable situation, remove yourself from it. In the case of gaming, find a new clan/guild.

    It's not hard at all.

    EDIT: And your Youtube video is hilarious. I absolutely would have made fun of her for being female solely on the basis of her screen name. Regardless of the outcome of the fight, she is an idiot for thinking people need to know what her gender is. But see, you don't want to see that and you'll likely parrot the same crap over and over.

    EDIT 2: I'm also convinced you aren't reading entire posts, but are instead scanning for snippets that you can respond to. I used to do that. Then I wasn't 15 anymore. Please stop it.
    Last edited by Snuffleupagus; 2012-09-06 at 02:44 AM.
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    I don't understand why the article needs to be about men treating women nicely. Why can't it just be about people treating everybody nicely? That's my big problem with people like Anita Sarkeesian. She only focuses on sexism and hate toward women. I guess that makes sense, with her being a feminist and all, but it still doesn't quite sit right with me. I dunno, I'm weird.
    That's like saying why don't the Black Panthers crusade against racism to white people.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    So don't associate with people like that? I'm fairly sure that it was claimed these people are a minority - it's not hard to escape them in a video game.
    yes, they are a minority, and no, it IS hard to escape them in a video game with no physical boundaries, particularly when the majority who may not be the trolls themselves, still actively defend the trolls' behaviour rather than making it clear it is not acceptable.

    You shouldn't actively broadcast it either. It's not relevant.
    yeah, thats right. i'm a female player, so even though everybody else gets to be their normal selves, i have to censor myself in guild chat to my online buds because i may accidentally "broadcast" that i am female when i talk about my boyfriend instead of my girlfriend, or mention girl bands that i like, or accidentally join in the conversation on vent. god forbid minorities should be able to experience the game just as everybody else does.

    And your Youtube video is hilarious. I absolutely would have made fun of her for being female solely on the basis of her screen name. Regardless of the outcome of the fight, she is an idiot for thinking people need to know what her gender is. But see, you don't want to see that and you'll likely parrot the same crap over and over.
    just wondering, whenever you see a player with a name that indicates he is a male, maybe the words "bro" or "boy" or "guy" or "dude" in his name, all of which are fairly common to see, do you think as poorly of him and believe he deserves to be harassed and trolled and generally treated like shit because of it? would you harass him and " absolutely have made fun of him for being male solely on the basis of his screen name?" or is it just us ladies who get the special treatment?

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