Sacred Shield vs Eternal Flame: Comparing with raid data and theorycrafting

[Lucyrotten]

Eternal Flame is not restricted to one person at a time. Sacred Shield is. When I did my calculations I didn't assume multiple applications so that would tip the scales slightly more in favor of EF over WoG. If you coupled EF with Holy Avenger and put it up on a lot of people it could be situationally quite strong for burst damage periods (Lei Shi Get Away for example).

I haven't looked at all with how the numbers look for glyphed LoD if anyone has that but I suspect it will be similar to the unglyphed that I did since the intent was to have the penalty be less for smaller raid groups.

[Elo]

If you coupled EF with Holy Avenger and put it up on a lot of people it could be situationally quite strong for burst damage periods (Lei Shi Get Away for example).

Then again for situations like this LoD will almost certainly perform even better + you have SS on someone

[Lucyrotten]

Lei Shi is a bad example, Voodoo Dolls would be better. I was thinking more in a 10m context if you can't get full benefit of LoD spam though.

[Envvyy]

I can't think of one time I would have chosen SS over EF in 25man heroic beta testing. They aren't even comparable and it has been stated above why.

If you could ever use SS on more than one target then this argument would make more sense, also the reasons for choosing SS in certain situations isn't necessarily for an HPS increase but instead for some sort of utility. HPS isn't always everything..

[necromorphs]

Think I've read from a sticky that SS is better when you need to heal more targets. Reason being you have more time to concentrate your heals on others while the tank is being taken care of by SS and beacon. However, base on my practical experience with EF and divine purpose, EF turned out to be quite amazing. Here's why:

1) EF HoTs as someone has pointed out are transferred via the beacon
2) EF HoTs triggers illuminated healing (our mastery). That being said, it refreshes the 15 secs shield duration and buffs the shield. This makes the shield last up to 45 secs if no damage is taken.
3) EF when procs divine purpose enable you to apply another EF unto another target which returns more HoT heals over the beacon. If divine purpose procs one after another, you could have many targets with HoTs. With the the beacon being glyphed ( no global cd). You might be able to move the beacon to reduce overheals.
4) EF HoTs crit

However, if not mistaken with the protector of innocent's glyph, you will still not get the HoT component of EF transferred to you.

[FiveDkp]

The only time you would choose SS over EF is if you're tank healing and one tank is taking damage and the boss does aoe damage pulses and you are stacked up.

So yes, EF is better than SS in most situations from a quality standpoint.

[Lucyrotten]

I'm trying to picture a scenario when I'm pretty happy to be using my HP on a single target instead of getting healing out to multiple targets. I realize that HPS isn't the final answer but if I have the option to apply a reasonably strong single target heal with a hot component to one person or effectively heal 6 with a shield on another that feels like it's almost always the right course of action.

I'll continue to play around with these talents in a practical way but as a 25m healer, my guess is that SS will feel better most of the time. I'm perfectly willing to be wrong on this though.

[Mokal]

I hope the "math" is taken while the shields are over lapping since if you start without any shield, it will take 6 seconds before it actually works.

[Mightypally]

I appreciate the theorycrafting done, I kept fiddling around with both of them and enjoyed EF a lot more for my playstyle because it was less annoying to try and keep up every 30s and seemed to have a higher output. Thank you for confirming it =)

[Lucyrotten]

I hope the "math" is taken while the shields are over lapping since if you start without any shield, it will take 6 seconds before it actually works.

My math is far from perfect, I was just looking at overall which appears to have the greater benefit and by roughly how much and in what types of situations one might pull ahead of the other in raw numbers. Once I start digging deeper into real logs I'll have a better sense of if the math matches reality but when trying to look at a starting point some math is helpful for me.

[Eviljoe]

SS will be better than EF on almost every encounter this upcoming tier (at least for 25m). EF is highly susceptible to overheal, and using SS on a tank consistently taking damage while LoD'ing the raid will not only give you better numbers, but the absorption effect is very good as well.

[chairmanmao]

I don't really know what to do with EF or SS. Keeping up the buff is irritating and will be more annoying during progression content where I might be laser focused on the encounter and it might drop off. On the other hand when I take EF I feel like I can't use LoD ever or I'm wasting the point I put in EF.

[s810]

SS will be better than EF on almost every encounter this upcoming tier (at least for 25m). EF is highly susceptible to overheal, and using SS on a tank consistently taking damage while LoD'ing the raid will not only give you better numbers, but the absorption effect is very good as well.

so do you have any hard data on mop raids, or is this just speculative untested opinion

forgive me for not taking your word.

anyway from my own tests sacred shield mitigates less damage than EF dot heals so the healing to damage offset ratio is worse.

if you're prot. i'd pick SS to keep up, holy take EF, ret. I liked selfless healer

but hey that's why we got talents so we can choose, there is no wrong spec.


also I hope the OP is only measuring EF with 3 charges of holy power since that will effect power of the DoT compared to just dropping a EF with 1 charge.

also the DoT from EF does add to the illumunated healing absorption shield which i doubt was being calculated either


tldr- far too many variables that haven't been calculated yet

[Deleted]

I take SS when preventative damage is preferable, i.e. madness and EF whenever the additional healing is nice for the likes of spine.

[Keiyra]

I don't really know what to do with EF or SS. Keeping up the buff is irritating and will be more annoying during progression content where I might be laser focused on the encounter and it might drop off.

Because its so hard to monitor a maintenance buff on the tank? That's like saying oh wow i can't keep up earth shield becuase its too hard to monitor it.
Have you ever played a hot class? Its not hard. Use adds ons. You have plenty of options - icons on UI, timer bars, flashy auras, plenty of ways.

[hatsune]

I notice the discussion is specifically to healing. Will a paladin tank taking the same talent as a paladin healer cause trouble?

[Reith]

I notice the discussion is specifically to healing. Will a paladin tank taking the same talent as a paladin healer cause trouble?

No conflict whatsoever.

[Ritaskeeter]

for those with an issue keeping up SS, use an aura mod, have it activate a timer that announces/flashes when you get to the 25-30sec mark so you re-up SS. Or just keep an eye out ;P

[Deja Thoris]

I kind of like eternal flame.

5 Holy power gives you one full strength eternal flame, quick holyshock and you have another one. Thats strong hots ticking on 2 players and a lot of any overheal goes towards an absorb shield. Combine this with the talent that lets you generate extra HP for 18 seconds (forgot its name) and you can easily stack full power EF's on half of the raid. Ticks from EF also proc maw pretty often too in my experience.

Compare this to ss which only ticks on one person.

I've not run any maths at all but EF just seems to shine a bit more for me with it's utility, plus, a pala with hot's, how awesome is that!?

Ofc, all of this will be situational and its easy to switch out where on fights where there is a clear winner.

[hatsune]

No conflict whatsoever.

So if the tank and healer both use EF there'll be 2 HOTs? Same for SS?