Ret PVP. Fist of Justice vs. Burden of Guilt.

[Freia]

Im not sure, the cooldown on it now really makes it pointless, given the cast time, and actually having to stop moving to get it off, 30 second fists is probably better. Blinding light almost fills the gap of repentance now with 2 minute cd so a 30 second cd hammer (given that we always had a minute cd before with last word spec) isn't 'too' bad. If they remove the cooldown on repentance then it becomes an option again imo.

It is a 15 second cooldown?!! You think that is bad. If you are on a team where someone else can slow and has stuns, not taking repentance would be stupid. There was a reason you wouldn't take improved Hammer of Justice before when you played with a warrior. It DRed too much of his cc to be worth it. Even with the cast time the Repentance on a healer to kill his teammate is still there. With your logic than cc like Fear and Polymorph are useless because they are casted. No you just find the right opportunity to use them like all cc.

[Deleted]

So, let me contribute a little bit to this topic. At start I want to say that both, BoG and FoJ are amazing talents. Both of them got great use in pvp and both feels like worth taking. However before you start to collaborate on which is better you should decide on what type of PvP you are interested in ? If we take BGs, then I would probably say BoG is better because being able to snare on range flag holders / runners / demolishers etc. is a huge deal. I woldn't eliminate FoJ tehere either, stunning healers more frequently will also help or even repentance is useful. It's not like BoG completely outclass other too it all depends on your playstyle and what role you want to fulfill in your group. Either to be a CC and DPS beast or rather a chaser to imbolize the "runners". As it comes to arena, situation is similar. BoG is usefull, however with limited area to run/kite and also your team supporting it's not needed. When you get to the target (with sprint ie.) you can Seal of Justice him to obtain same effect. I would say FoJ is a better choice for arena but then again it all depends in what setup you play ( because DRing stun for your mate rogue isn't gonna help that much ).
In conclusion I think both of this talents are great and both of them got use in certain scenarios, so the choice is yours and choose wisely .

[kosechi]

bog is the weakest talent in this tier. we have a 50% slow of seal of justice now.

both FoJ and Repentance are situational to who and what you are playing with.

i've just had FoJ talented because its kind of useful in pve and i've been finding i'm having trouble getting casts of repentance off in chaotic bgs, but i'm pretty sure i'll be running repentance for arena when the new season starts.

[Fhi]

This is killing me. There was a big fire in the trade chat last night over which is better for pvp.

The nice thing is that there is no one correct answer. They are all situational. Many of us like BoG because it's something we've been wanting since the dawn of time. It's undispellable and pretty much spammable. Fist is also good in its own way, because Fist works on every class and stuns are one of the most powerful CCs since it doesn't break on damage. Plus you reduce the cooldown by 50% at a longer range.

However, in a random BG, Fist may see less use because of diminishing return from other classes. So it's all situational.

[Malthanis]

bog is the weakest talent in this tier. we have a 50% slow of seal of justice now.

Using BoG allows you to use SoTruth instead of SoJustice, which is a plus in the DPS department. BoG also has the bonus of being applied from a range, as well as having a longer debuff time. I also think the BoG debuff is non-magical, which protects it from standard cleansing spells (i.e. requiring a snare/root clearing spell or ability specifically).

I'm not saying it's better than the other two choices (which is the whole point), but I certainly don't see how it's the 'weakest' in the tier.

[kosechi]

Using BoG allows you to use SoTruth instead of SoJustice, which is a plus in the DPS department. BoG also has the bonus of being applied from a range, as well as having a longer debuff time. I also think the BoG debuff is non-magical, which protects it from standard cleansing spells (i.e. requiring a snare/root clearing spell or ability specifically).

I'm not saying it's better than the other two choices (which is the whole point), but I certainly don't see how it's the 'weakest' in the tier.

because its something we already have with out having to talent it and the damage loss from using SoJ over SoT is not very large.

most of the classes that rets have good synergy with already have ranged snares, why do we need one? wouldn't it be better to add an incapacitate or a more frequent stun to that mix then just duplicating something you already have in the comp?

[Fhi]

because its something we already have with out having to talent it and the damage loss from using SoJ over SoT is not very large.

most of the classes that rets have good synergy with already have ranged snares, why do we need one? wouldn't it be better to add an incapacitate or a more frequent stun to that mix then just duplicating something you already have in the comp?

You're talking exclusively about Arena. Understand that 'situational' means applies to different environments.

[kosechi]

You're talking exclusively about Arena. Understand that 'situational' means applies to different environments.

from what i've seen of t14 there is no need for BoG in pve. it has limited use in bgs because you can snare with SoJ and most people you will be playing with in arena come with a baseline ranged snare.

it might have use in random wpvp funz. but SoJ works just fine there too.

[Deleted]

because its something we already have with out having to talent it and the damage loss from using SoJ over SoT is not very large.

most of the classes that rets have good synergy with already have ranged snares, why do we need one? wouldn't it be better to add an incapacitate or a more frequent stun to that mix then just duplicating something you already have in the comp?

first thing first you need to get to target first then use your SOJ and with good caster and rang it's not that easy they kite and kill you like drinking water, second the damage of SOT is way more than small thing you mention specially you cant one shot your target and need to stay on it for some time and DOT with censure and stack up your SOT for more damage, dude you have no clue what you re talking about.

[Palatinus]

It is a 15 second cooldown?!! You think that is bad. If you are on a team where someone else can slow and has stuns, not taking repentance would be stupid. There was a reason you wouldn't take improved Hammer of Justice before when you played with a warrior. It DRed too much of his cc to be worth it. Even with the cast time the Repentance on a healer to kill his teammate is still there. With your logic than cc like Fear and Polymorph are useless because they are casted. No you just find the right opportunity to use them like all cc.

I forgot about teaming with warriors lol, I think we all know why. Anyway, if dr is an issue then yes, obviously take repentance.

I didn't want to make it out as 'useless', that seems a bit extreme.
That said, comparing repentance to fear and poly is a bit silly. If mages and warlocks were melee and didn't have to cast anything but fear and poly then yes, it could become very situational. Add in the fact that these are baseline abilities, if mages had to talent for poly over say a deep freeze with half the cooldown, and this poly had 15 second cooldown, don't you think 'poly' would decrease a lot in popularity or practical use?

The cast time is not the problem for me, the cooldown is what makes it a bad talent, and the fact it has a cooldown has got to be due to holy. What doesn't make sense is that similar casted baseline abilities don't have cooldowns, (in fact warlocks even get instant fear with a shorter cooldown than repentance) while repentance has a 15 second cooldown and is a talent. Due to the fact that fear moves the target and doesn't break on damage it's a little harder to compare, but poly is on same dr, doesn't move the target, breaks on damage and is baseline (ok, it heals the target....only negative about it).

Given how much cc mages already have I don't see how the cooldown on repentance but not polymorph can be justified.

[Bsod]

i prefer fist of justice but as soon as we are able to play arena again i feel that burden will gain the upper hand.And nice that you dont take repentance in the vote no body likes cast time!

[Krekko]

because its something we already have with out having to talent it and the damage loss from using SoJ over SoT is not very large.

I'd actually consider reevaluating the damage that SoT does over SoJ. Namely the large amount of damage gained by Censure.


The plain matter of fact is all three talents have their place, and their utility. Both in PvE and/or PvP.

When choosing the talents you need to look at what you have vs what you're against and judge from there what is best taken.

Are you in Arena? Are you in RBG? Are you in regular BG's? Are you fighting against a caster heavy group? Or melee heavy group? Does your teammates have a snare? Would the extra damage be optimal if not? Or would the extra stuns you get out be more beneficial? So on so forth.

[Requital]

I'd actually consider reevaluating the damage that SoT does over SoJ. Namely the large amount of damage gained by Censure.


The plain matter of fact is all three talents have their place, and their utility. Both in PvE and/or PvP.

When choosing the talents you need to look at what you have vs what you're against and judge from there what is best taken.

Are you in Arena? Are you in RBG? Are you in regular BG's? Are you fighting against a caster heavy group? Or melee heavy group? Does your teammates have a snare? Would the extra damage be optimal if not? Or would the extra stuns you get out be more beneficial? So on so forth.

BoG is just Judgement of Justice with a slightly better snare, That's how I feel about it we should have had it all along and the talent should have been something else. However it feels just like having JoJ back and I was horrified when we lost it I just think Blizzard continually gives Ret recycled shit in a shiny container.

[Fhi]

When choosing the talents you need to look at what you have vs what you're against and judge from there what is best taken.

This is essentially what people still have trouble processing. For so long we've had "take-this-or-you-are-bad" talent system that they tend to think that this new system has a no-brainer talent that fits all. Granted, some classes still have certain talents that need a lot of reworking, but we're far from the "take this or you are bad" era.

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 03:11 PM ----------

BoG is just Judgement of Justice with a slightly better snare, That's how I feel about it we should have had it all along and the talent should have been something else. However it feels just like having JoJ back and I was horrified when we lost it I just think Blizzard continually gives Ret recycled shit in a shiny container.

Unfortunately, this I agree with. We are just given what everyone else already had for a couple of expacs.

[Krekko]

BoG is just Judgement of Justice with a slightly better snare, That's how I feel about it we should have had it all along and the talent should have been something else. However it feels just like having JoJ back and I was horrified when we lost it I just think Blizzard continually gives Ret recycled shit in a shiny container.

I agree, and it's true. I just don't mind the choice that much to be honest.

I was hoping for some super cool spell where we turn into the light and appear at the target in an awesome cloud of smoke and light, but I'll keep dreaming.

[Requital]

I agree, and it's true. I just don't mind the choice that much to be honest.

I was hoping for some super cool spell where we turn into the light and appear at the target in an awesome cloud of smoke and light, but I'll keep dreaming.

OffT: Remember when Deep Wounds was impossible to keep up as it didn't roll over properly so they re-design deep wounds for Warriors? Shortly after Ret got this incredible new 3 point damn near last tier talent called Righteous Vengeance that was deep wounds ver 1.0 shitty warrior talent wrapped in a shiny new Ret box.

OnT: I don't mind it either just sick of getting big brothers hand me downs.

[Tangra]

OffT: Remember when Deep Wounds was impossible to keep up as it didn't roll over properly so they re-design deep wounds for Warriors? Shortly after Ret got this incredible new 3 point damn near last tier talent called Righteous Vengeance that was deep wounds ver 1.0 shitty warrior talent wrapped in a shiny new Ret box.

OnT: I don't mind it either just sick of getting big brothers hand me downs.

Yeah, it's very rare that new and innovative mechanics are given to Paladins first, if at all. Every expansion we get awfully straight forward new abilities that usually consist of simple increases to damage and healing. I really can't think of a single time that anything particularly interesting was given to paladins first and then spread to the rest of the community. New and innovative mechanics such as Spellsteal, Smoke Bomb, Heroic Leap, Dark Simulacrum, Symbiosis and so forth are something that Paladins have never really seen. It's pretty obvious how little excitement the developers have when expanding upon Paladins every xpack. The only even remotely innovative thing about Paladins I can think of was Divine Intervention, which however had no real impact on combat, and was just a time saver, and as such the bugs associated with it were not worth fixing.

As far as the main topic goes. Burden of Guilt is just plain gratuitous in BGs, being able to slow mounted players to a crawl from 40 yards away is incredibly fun and strategically nasty. But in arena, while still very nice, other options begin to weigh-in more heavily. A 30 sec CD on HoJ is very powerful, but if your going with a rogue for example, the stuns might DR each other a bit too much, which makes me want to consider Repentance too.

Yes, Repent has some major flaws, and is a serious dps loss, also, with the silly 15 sec cooldown it's probably best to alternate who you cast it on, waiting 15 seconds just to cast a DRed 4 sec repent sucks, so you might as well either delay it for 15 sec after the last repent ends, or just use it on another target for full duration. With all it's flaws, it's still a powerful CC and I can't dismiss it very easily. I think a team with plenty of stuns and snares might seriously consider it.

[Deleted]

I'd actually consider reevaluating the damage that SoT does over SoJ. Namely the large amount of damage gained by Censure.


The plain matter of fact is all three talents have their place, and their utility. Both in PvE and/or PvP.

When choosing the talents you need to look at what you have vs what you're against and judge from there what is best taken.

Are you in Arena? Are you in RBG? Are you in regular BG's? Are you fighting against a caster heavy group? Or melee heavy group? Does your teammates have a snare? Would the extra damage be optimal if not? Or would the extra stuns you get out be more beneficial? So on so forth.

Sorry but this is pointless post. PvP is dynamic, you dont have to stick to SoJ to snare constantly, this slow last 8 sec if I reckon so just switch to snare then switch back to SoC so hard? Losing only 1 gcd almost like using hamstring...

[Fhi]

Sorry but this is pointless post. PvP is dynamic, you dont have to stick to SoJ to snare constantly, this slow last 8 sec if I reckon so just switch to snare then switch back to SoC so hard? Losing only 1 gcd almost like using hamstring...

SoJ is dispellable. Hamstring is not.

[Deleted]

SoJ is dispellable. Hamstring is not.

Thats why I've said almost. And having a dispellable slow is better to not have any.