I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[suicuique]

No. They occurred at the same time in the same product. That does not make, suggest or prove the correlation you want it to suggest.

It certainly does not prove it, but you are telling me that two things happening sumultaniously do not suggest some kind of correlation at first glance?
Really?

[vesseblah]

It certainly does not prove it, but you are telling me that two things happening sumultaniously do not suggest some kind of correlation at first glance?
Really?

At first glance it suggests, yes.

But the point is that the lack of evidence has been demonstrated in this thread multiple times already: Blizzard people have said on record that the starting Cata content was too hard which was biggest mistake they made in the expansion. Between the lines you can see that this is the actual correlation they see in the subscriber data.

Then the twits like Z are ignoring that irrefutable fact and pulling all kinds of crackpot theories out of their tinfoil hats or butts dragging it on to span 90 pages of garbage.

[Deleted]

No. It's becoming a a derogatory term for someone who wnats to maintain a certain elite status by denying others even the opportunity to take part in game content.

When has anyone asked Blizzard to deny anyone anything? Everyone who plays this game has precisely the same opportunity to take part in the content. You get a character, you get access to the game. Completely equal.

Not only are you insulting the progression raiders by falsely claiming they want to deny others something, but you're insulting the casuals, effectively saying that they're so fundamentally bad, so incapable of learning or improving that they will never have any hope of doing anything in this game unless Blizzard specifically makes dumbed down content for them.

[suicuique]

At first glance it suggests, yes.

But the point is that the lack of evidence has been demonstrated in this thread multiple times already: Blizzard people have said on record that the starting Cata content was too hard which was biggest mistake they made in the expansion. Between the lines you can see that this is the actual correlation they see in the subscriber data.

Then the twits like Z are ignoring that irrefutable fact and pulling all kinds of crackpot theories out of their tinfoil hats or butts dragging it on to span 90 pages of garbage.

Disclaimer: I do not think that the subscription loss and the raid model correlate. I just think that the game as a whole is past its prime. And Cata being a suboptimal expansion did not help.

With this out of the way, I do not see how it was demonstrated that the higher initial difficulty level and the subscription loss correlate either. This does not explain the huge fall off in this year, when heroics difficulty was as low as in WotLK.

[Gurbz]

When has anyone asked Blizzard to deny anyone anything?

Current model: Widely accessible to anyone who wishes to see it, through the use of lower difficulty versions, progressive nerfs, catch-up mechanics, etc.

Progression (TBC) model: Only first tier truly widely available. Later tiers limited to those with the time and/or skill to progress through all previous tiers. Majority of players will never access final tier raids while content is current.

By asking to return to a true progression style raid model, you, in fact, ARE asking Blizzard to deny access to content to a large part of the players that are currently able to experience at least some version of all the raiding content an expansion offers.

[vesseblah]

This does not explain the huge fall off in this year, when heroics difficulty was as low as in WotLK.

D3, GW2 and major lack of endgame content (only three HoT instances and crap last tier raid). Take your pick.

According to blue posts LFR has made raiding more popular than ever, so that kinda kills any chance of content being too easy being a major contributing factor to the subscription drop.

[Deleted]

When has anyone asked Blizzard to deny anyone anything? Everyone who plays this game has precisely the same opportunity to take part in the content. You get a character, you get access to the game. Completely equal.

Nah, the raiding element in particular relies on so many out of game and non game related elements to work that this is utter rubbish.

Not only are you insulting the progression raiders by falsely claiming they want to deny others something, but you're insulting the casuals, effectively saying that they're so fundamentally bad, so incapable of learning or improving that they will never have any hope of doing anything in this game unless Blizzard specifically makes dumbed down content for them.

Might be an insult but empiricism says it's right. Games been out for years, casuals have never stepped up in the way you claim they can. Either reality is wrong or you are. (It's you.)

[Osmeric]

By asking to return to a true progression style raid model, you, in fact, ARE asking Blizzard to deny access to content to a large part of the players that are currently able to experience at least some version of all the raiding content an expansion offers.

But he's, like, totally not wording it that way, so it's all ok, you see? [/sarcasm]

[Talen]

It certainly does not prove it, but you are telling me that two things happening sumultaniously do not suggest some kind of correlation at first glance?
Really?

At first glance? Sure.
At second and subsequent glances? I consider the theory to be ludicrous. The new raid model didn't really change raiding. It meant that I had to use an alt if I wanted to raid 10s. What did this mean? It meant I had to go through Catas levelling again. OK - maybe it did cause a loss of subs...

Buit the raids? I ejoyed the raids as much as I did any other. So did most raiders I know. Indeed, a lot of the QQing about the new raid model has been linked to issues such as "I can't raid twice in the same week"....but iof they don't want an alt, who am I to say thats wrong.

So no...if the raids were just as enjoyable and cosuming as ever, then the flaw with Cataclysm, the reaosn why subs dropped so much must lie elsewhere. As it is, I ahd no big complaisnt with my main. With my alts...however, things were bad. The levelling process didn't encourage replays. The story wasn't great and the system too repetitive. The quests were far too linear. There was no sensne of cohension and a lot of the "nifty" aspects smacked of unfunny in jokes and pop-cultures references that QUICKLY wore very thin.

The end game was worse...I got to level 85 and then nothing. The dubngeosnw ere too long, too difficult for me to fit them into my schedule on a regular basis. I was still doign TBC rep grinds but the Cata ones were linked to dungeons I had not ime or inclination to do. For the first time in years, playing my alts meant sitting around the city because there was nothing end game for me to do with them. So I dropped them. They sat untouched for about a year.

And I heard the same from many others...raiding was still fairly good. But there was little else to do. And I saw the same complaint raised time and time again on the forums.

Do I think the new raid format had an impact? Possibly...but only (at best) a very minor one. But simply because it occurred at the same time as the sub loss does not imply a link. One can construe one but even a moments thought should see that lne of reasoning fade. A game cannot exist without somethign to do....and Cataclsym end game had little, if anything.

So, subs declined. Why?

They were going to decline because of the world economy.
They were going to decline because of the lack of end game for non-raiders. Going by other games with similar issues, they were going to decline a lot.
They were going to decline because of Blizzards need to keep Dragon Soul going for 10 months.
They were going to decline because of end of Xpac blues, as they always do.
They were going to decline due to the release of so many other similar games and the competition due to WoWs age.

Were they...on top of all this...going to decline because of a minor change to an aspect of the game that affected only a small portion of the entire player base?

You tell me...is it credible that a minor change, one that doesn't even really affect the raid itself, really going to cause 25% of the player base to unsubscribe? Is it credible to believe this when the issue Blizzard chose to address was the lack of end game content? The same issue players have been complaining about ever since Cata launched?

I get that players don't like the new raid model. I just don't understand why. I do not believe that the new raid model has had anything above a very, very minor impact on subscriber numbers. If that.

When has anyone asked Blizzard to deny anyone anything?

You have. By proposing a type of content a lot of players won't have the opportunity to see, and by demanding Blizzard diverts a huge amount of resources to provide it. You don't want the inclusion of the alternate difficluty modes that will ensure the majority of the player base has a realistic option of taking part...because those are short cuts that destroy your personal enjoyment, even though how THEY play has no impact on the game for you. A return to the old raid model where players who did not have the time to raid full time had no opportunity to take part and so were denied access to the content.

I do acknowledge you have a point, but I see this as the difference between the world we want to live in and the world we do live in. Blizzard can't afford to develop content for such small bases, and it needs to esnuire the content it does develop is experienced as widely as possible. You rmodel cannot work within those limitations and if a player who you don't know is able to play the game on an easier setting than you, and this somehow detracts from your enjoyment even though you are ruinning the content you otherwise find fun and challenging....I don't know what to advise.

EJL

[Deleted]

By asking to return to a true progression style raid model, you, in fact, ARE asking Blizzard to deny access to content to a large part of the players that are currently able to experience at least some version of all the raiding content an expansion offers.

That's just not true. The only limitation Blizzard has ever made is that if you don't buy an xpac, you don't get to play the content in it. Nobody is denied access to anything. I don't get anything more from Blizzard than anyone else gets. I get no guarantees from Blizzard that I will see all the content, nor is there any guarantee from Blizzard that someone else will not. It's just content, it's there, you're not guaranteed success, but this is a game and not a movie (go see one if you want a guarantee to "see all the content" in your entertainment). Your success should depend on your own actions in a game, otherwise it's not a game.

---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 06:07 PM ----------

A return to the old raid model where players who did not have the time to raid full time had no opportunity to take part and so were denied access to the content.

That's just a fallacy you've created in your own head. I raided 2-3 nights per week and I got halfway in Sunwell. I don't consider that "full time". Your second fallacy is to assume that you have to see all the content to enjoy the game. If you play less, if you're less skilled, you also need less content to fill your play times.

[Deleted]

That's just not true. The only limitation Blizzard has ever made is that if you don't buy an xpac, you don't get to play the content in it. Nobody is denied access to anything. I don't get anything more from Blizzard than anyone else gets. I get no guarantees from Blizzard that I will see all the content, nor is there any guarantee from Blizzard that someone else will not. It's just content, it's there, you're not guaranteed success, but this is a game and not a movie (go see one if you want a guarantee to "see all the content" in your entertainment). Your success should depend on your own actions in a game, otherwise it's not a game.

---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 06:07 PM ----------



That's just a fallacy you've created in your own head. I raided 2-3 nights per week and I got halfway in Sunwell. I don't consider that "full time". Your second fallacy is to assume that you have to see all the content to enjoy the game. If you play less, if you're less skilled, you also need less content to fill your play times.

Sounds a lot like the magic word here is "Carried."

Infracted~

[Tomana]

From Synti of Paragon:

"I remember the countless wipes on Sapphiron and whatnot. You remember what a joke that encounter was at the start of Wrath? You had one thing to dispel, then you had to dodge the PAINFULLY SLOWLY DROPPING BOMB. Anyone who died to it in Wrath more than once or twice was a total scrub, tricked by that Brewfest drink or by a mage, right?

Back then, however, we had easily one hundred wipes to that same stupid shit. To that damn bomb alone. Not to mention people forgetting to dispel the curse? Like, literally forgetting that it just existed in the whole fight and we wiped. The addons pretty much had no restrictions even back then, so you could make a macro that dispelled anyone in range with the same damn key that you shot Fireball from without having to do anything else. We had a priest who refused to use PoH; he was Greater Healing people in a fight where everyone takes AoE damage and GHeal heals for less with lower efficiency. We had people who put out less than half the damage of what some people playing the same class did with the same gear. We had people who were dirty clickers. We had a feral druid doing DPS back when there were no goddamn real talents for it.

Worst of all, we were a top guild. Just let that sink in for a moment. What I described was something like the 4th or 5th kill of Sapphiron _total_ in the whole world."

Yea, it really wasn't that hard."

This quote is golden.

[Gurbz]

That's just not true. The only limitation Blizzard has ever made is that if you don't buy an xpac, you don't get to play the content in it. Nobody is denied access to anything. I don't get anything more from Blizzard than anyone else gets. I get no guarantees from Blizzard that I will see all the content, nor is there any guarantee from Blizzard that someone else will not. It's just content, it's there, you're not guaranteed success, but this is a game and not a movie (go see one if you want a guarantee to "see all the content" in your entertainment). Your success should depend on your own actions in a game, otherwise it's not a game.

Difference in philosophy then. You feel like someone should have to "earn" the right to see all of the content Blizzard puts into the game, at least based upon your movie comment. I feel that all content should be available to anyone who wishes to experience it, at a time when it is the most current content in the game, regardless of what they have or have not done previously aside from meeting level and gear requirements. LFR accomplishes this nearly perfectly in my opinion. People with greater amounts of available time or of greater skill have challenges appropriate to them along with rewards appropriate to that challenge (or at least they should but thats a different discussion). What people with less time or less skill do or do not do should not matter to them in the slightest.

I wonder if you realize that what you are saying is effectively "I am better at the game than them, so I should get things that they can't ever have unless they become at least as good as me"? Or if you realize how selfish that sounds?

It's like you play in the NFL and I wanna play in a flag league on Saturdays. You get the Super Bowl Trophy, I get a thing that looks sorta similar (if you squint) made out of plastic and fake wood. Thing is, I'm perfectly happy. You are trying to take away our ball and tell us we can't have it back unless we play high school ball, then college ball, and finally get drafted into the league, because us playing at a much lower level than you, and without having to go through all that you did, in your mind makes your fancy trophy, state-of-the-art equipment, and huge salaries completely worthless.

[Deleted]

Difference in philosophy then. You feel like someone should have to "earn" the right to see all of the content Blizzard puts into the game, at least based upon your movie comment. I feel that all content should be available to anyone who wishes to experience it, at a time when it is the most current content in the game, regardless of what they have or have not done previously, aside from meeting level and gear requirements.

The difference is that I want a game, not an interactive storybook. I mean, this this is still advertised as a "game", isn't it? It's not about "earning" anything, it's about the basic characteristic of a game being an artificial construct to challenge you and reward you for over coming those challenges with progress. Maybe it's because I grew up with old school games, you know the ones where to get to the next level you need to beat the current one.

I wonder if you realize that what you are saying is effectively "I am better at the game than them, so I should get things that they can't ever have unless they become at least as good as me"? Or if you realize how selfish that sounds?

I'm sure that's what you'd want to believe. But in reality I don't care one bit about "them" or how far "they" get in the game. I didn't play this game to feel better or superior to some random person I don't know and don't want to know. I mean, I'm happy if the game can provide them with enjoyable experiences, but I'm going to be pissed off if their whining means that the whole game is changed around in a way that I no longer get the progression enjoyment that I want out of it.

[Deleted]

Suck my balls casuals, yes you pay for the game but doesnt mean you should see all, i mean 90% of you are shit crap garbage players.

Infracted~

[Deleted]

I'm starting to want raids in mmos less and less with all the complaining about it and endgame all the time, rather they press out smaller shorter things more frequently. Kinda how TSW was looking like they where going with, well, kinda atleast. And with that, tired with all, you have completed the dungeon, now do it every week for months to come!

[Gurbz]

The difference is that I want a game, not an interactive storybook. I mean, this this is still advertised as a "game", isn't it? It's not about "earning" anything, it's about the basic characteristic of a game being an artificial construct to challenge you and reward you for over coming those challenges with progress. Maybe it's because I grew up with old school games, you know the ones where to get to the next level you need to beat the current one.



I'm sure that's what you'd want to believe. But in reality I don't care one bit about "them" or how far "they" get in the game. I didn't play this game to feel better or superior to some random person I don't know and don't want to know. I mean, I'm happy if the game can provide them with enjoyable experiences, but I'm going to be pissed off if their whining means that the whole game is changed around in a way that I no longer get the progression enjoyment that I want out of it.

I don't have an issue with the progression aspect. My problem comes in the idea that there be singular level of difficulty attached to that as well, usually somewhere above even what normal raids are today, along with all other difficulties being removed (TBC model). That's what I see constantly requested, even by the OP of this thread. If they kept everything in the system exactly like it is now (including 5-mans and other mechanics to "catch-up" people that have fallen behind) but instead now require each successive raid to be cleared before you can move on to the next, I would be completely on board with that system. The only other thing I would ask for is to drop the asinine requirement that people clear normal before gaining access to heroic.

Edit: We can get rid of the progressive nerfs to instances too. They are mostly unnecessary with the introduction of LFR. There are three difficulties available. Pick one, get it done in that difficulty, or drop down to the next lower.

[Deleted]

I don't have an issue with the progression aspect. My problem comes in the idea that there be singular level of difficulty attached to that as well, usually somewhere above even what normal raids are today, along with all other difficulties being removed (TBC model)

The problem is that there cannot be real progression and shortcuts at the same time. To get the TBC style progression feel, there needs to be only one way to kill a boss, only one way to get over the challenge. You just can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm advocating difficulty modes to be removed from progression content. I'm not saying there cannot be separate raids that are accessible and provide casual gaming for people who do not like skill based progression raiding. Put all the lore and big bosses in storymode LFR with gear and level scaling so that anyone can experience it regardless of their level or gear, and in addition put in TBC style raids for raiders in completely separate instances.

[Deleted]

The problem is that there cannot be real progression and shortcuts at the same time. To get the TBC style progression feel, there needs to be only one way to kill a boss, only one way to get over the challenge. You just can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm advocating difficulty modes to be removed from progression content. I'm not saying there cannot be separate raids that are accessible and provide casual gaming for people who do not like skill based progression raiding. Put all the lore and big bosses in storymode LFR with gear and level scaling so that anyone can experience it regardless of their level or gear, and in addition put in TBC style raids for raiders in completely separate instances.

"World of warcraft - the 8,000 player edition."

Can't see it working out very well.

[Deleted]

Interesting...
A single person says that he is going "to try out wow" after a year break and he gets a steady 10k+ viewers in his tweet, with minimum advertise while eating shushi.
While in raid the viewers of his video went over 13k.

Well that person happened to be Kungen Nihilum/Ensidia leader.
Having seen that and the 2-3 live streams of 25s racing DS, i can say that it is clearly a very solid strategy Blizzard has to chase away the top raiders and to kill 25s...

13k people watching a guy eating shushi, and blizzard is snorring waking up every now and then mumbling...nerf more! MOAR!!!