I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Jinto]

Blizzard isnt going to go back to Burning Crusade raid designs so the point is moot. But IMO they should think outside the box a little. Just like how HMs are nerfed every month, they can put in an option for hardcore raiders to turn up the damage. Loot is the same but you can give some vanity title/achieves for server best etc. There can be a lot of variation on the idea but the bottom line is that there should be some challenge during farm. It would force people to change their strategy or totally invent new ones to beat the encounters.

[nooty]

Don't like the current Raid model quit wow and play on private server TBC .

So far blizz has done good job and they also nerf the content so even casuals can go from LFR to Normal more nerf then can finish normal mode more nerf then can start trying heroics more nerf few mos kills on heroic ultimate nerf heroic is now complete for casuals too .

If u can't spend the same dedication what u could not put pre nerf well u should consider the nerfs as blizz not taking game away from you

[Hayden272]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

quit crying kid, seriously wows raids went from challenging which is what a game is about to just being hand outs for casuals who dont put any time into the game, don't want to try just want to get free epics, and thats what pvp is about go do some BGs get free easy mode pvp epics, it's pathetic what the game has come to, 35% nerf on DS seriously if you need a 35% nerf to kill a boss you need to l2play because you're pretty damn bad at what is a damn simplistic game now, thats been simplified out the ass, no more down ranked spells, less moves, moves combined into others to save you doing stuff, buffs increased so you don't even need to buff as much anymore, seals changed to auras so you dont forget to reapply them after you've died, its just sad...

[Mormolyce]

This is obviously what absolutely nobody wants, so no.

FWIW, I am a HM raider, this idea sounds crap to me.

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

For all we know this guy might not even raid. Don't assume tools like this speak for raiders.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 05:23 AM ----------

Blizzard isnt going to go back to Burning Crusade raid designs so the point is moot. But IMO they should think outside the box a little. Just like how HMs are nerfed every month, they can put in an option for hardcore raiders to turn up the damage. Loot is the same but you can give some vanity title/achieves for server best etc. There can be a lot of variation on the idea but the bottom line is that there should be some challenge during farm. It would force people to change their strategy or totally invent new ones to beat the encounters.

In MoP there will be raid debuffs like DS/ICC and you get a Feat for beating it before the buff is applied or after turning it off.

You can turn off the DS buff right now of course, but nobody does. Because nobody actually cares, people who go on about this crap on the forums are full of it. The only people who really care about "prestige" kills are cutting edge raiders who beat everything long before the nerfs come around. Which is the only time it actually counts, if you can't beat a raid within a few weeks like Paragon, KIN, Method etc etc then you're doing it with a lot more gear than they had so it's not really the same is it?

If you want "prestige" or whatever you'd call it, join Paragon/Method/etc and get a full clear in a few weeks. Otherwise stop obsessing about things like nerfs, the "challenge" is long gone probably before you even got your 2pc.

[Dylamoo]

This is obviously what absolutely nobody wants, so no.

FWIW, I am a HM raider, this idea sounds crap to me.



For all we know this guy might not even raid. Don't assume tools like this speak for raiders.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 05:23 AM ----------



In MoP there will be raid debuffs like DS/ICC and you get a Feat for beating it before the buff is applied or after turning it off.

You can turn off the DS buff right now of course, but nobody does. Because nobody actually cares, people who go on about this crap on the forums are full of it. The only people who really care about "prestige" kills are cutting edge raiders who beat everything long before the nerfs come around. Which is the only time it actually counts, if you can't beat a raid within a few weeks like Paragon, KIN, Method etc etc then you're doing it with a lot more gear than they had so it's not really the same is it?

If you want "prestige" or whatever you'd call it, join Paragon/Method/etc and get a full clear in a few weeks. Otherwise stop obsessing about things like nerfs, the "challenge" is long gone probably before you even got your 2pc.

Why do we need to be in hardcore guilds to get "prestige"? What we want also is that that journey that makes it feel like a worthwhile game to play. Also if that's their approach on appeasing everyone then obviously they have completely given up on the community that likes to actually do a real raid. I mean come on how ridiculous is that? you get help from the developers because we're too pathetic to try and do it on our own, so they give you a buff to help you win. Also fuck feats of strength, that stupid feat is not what we want.

[Dropndestroyrr]

The problem with OP's suggestion is that the tiered difficulty system (LFR -> Normal -> Heroic) spreads out the content for those who enjoy different segments of the game and reducing that to one difficulty cuts off experiences for others like he insists is being done to "hardcore raiders".

The hardcore raiders will find normals very easy and only care about heroic kills. However, normal mode raiders like to have the normal mode experience where they can be challenged with their skill set and aspire to kills some heroic modes. LFR is for those that are just starting raid.

This system that the OP is proposing would never work in today's MMO model.

[Akka]

Why can't you just do the raids in order? There is no one stopping you from that you know. You don't have to take the gear reset mid expansion into consideration if you don't want to. And turn off the nerfs while you are at it. You could also force everyone in the guild be exalted with some obscure faction before you let them raid to simulate the TBC atunements. The sky is the limit as you can make all those decisions for you and your guild. If not, start your own guild with your own rules. I'm sure you will get some people raiding with you that liked the way things were in TBC.

Do you even consider this ridiculous proposition to be serious ? I'm spent nearly one page explaining how progression is interesting if it's MEANINGFUL, and you're giving me this garbage about playing make-believe (and magically having people playing along this idiocy) ? Is it a troll or did you not even read the point ?

And well, if you're going with such reasoning : why don't you wait for the next expansion to discover the content of the previous one, rather than asking for LFR, nerfs and the like ?

[Deleted]

there's nothing wrong with wanting to be in the minority of the playerbase that actually works to accomplish something, if everyone had your sickeningly egocentric mindset the world would be in a terrible place, man wouldn't be able to take pride in climbing everest without being called out on wanting to be special, man wouldn't aspire to win gold in the olympics. It's as terrible a mindset as those that criticise a learned man for taking an interest in the world and being educated.

World first Ragnaros does not make you Sir Edmund Hillary or Marie Curie, champ.

[Deleted]

There is no 12M peak at the start of WLK, which is what mmodata pulled out of their arse making it look like that there would be a dip in the middle of WLK. How hard can that be to understand? It really does not match any of the numbers I posted except maybe in Narnia or some other fantasy land you live in.

Do you have access to Blizzard's internal data to claim that there was no 12M peak at the start of WotLK? You can claim that Blizzard didn't officially publish such numbers, but you cannot claim there was no such peak. I also don't get why are you concentrating on such utter triviality. Even if there was no 12M peak, the numbers would probably be off only by some 0.5M (which given that Blizzard only releases averages is a margin of error you must assume for their "official" numbers anyway) it makes absolutely no difference to the actual argument: Sub growth stopped in WotLK.

I really don't give a flying fuck where mmodata.net pulls their imaginary numbers from. You on the other hand should care since you seem to trust them implicitly even after I have demonstrated you many times already that those numbers can not be trusted.

You have demonstrated nothing but that their data matches well what Blizzard officially published. You are just so hell bent on your preconceived notions that you cannot accept any data that goes against your unsubstantiated opinion. You just keep raging against some trivialities, like that the chart contains data other than Blizzard's official numbers, which everyone knows and which have no impact on the actual argument.

[Dylamoo]

Do you have access to Blizzard's internal data to claim that there was no 12M peak at the start of WotLK? You can claim that Blizzard didn't officially publish such numbers, but you cannot claim there was no such peak. I also don't get why are you concentrating on such utter triviality. Even if there was no 12M peak, the numbers would probably be off only by some 0.5M (which given that Blizzard only releases averages is a margin of error you must assume for their "official" numbers anyway) it makes absolutely no difference to the actual argument: Sub growth stopped in WotLK.



You have demonstrated nothing but that their data matches well what Blizzard officially published. You are just so hell bent on your preconceived notions that you cannot accept any data that goes against your unsubstantiated opinion. You just keep raging against some trivialities, like that the chart contains data other than Blizzard's official numbers, which everyone knows and which have no impact on the actual argument.

looks like someones in denial lololol@itrusteverythingontheweb. I honestly don't see a point between you two numb skulls knocking each others heads to get blizzards numbers. They released their numbers any website that tries to datamine that usually is innacurate just like mmo-champion and has stated such countless times. Seems more like you're arguing just to argue so you can retain whatever pride you're trying to maintain. e-peens are for kids

[Deleted]

I don't understand what you want, OP. If you raid, you are a raider. If you don't raid, you are not a raider. How can you 'give back' raids to raiders, if the only people using them, are raiders?

[vesseblah]

You have demonstrated nothing but that their data matches well what Blizzard officially published.

It does not match with what Blizzard officially published. You really can't see it?

You are just so hell bent on your preconceived notions that you cannot accept any data that goes against your unsubstantiated opinion. You just keep raging against some trivialities, like that the chart contains data other than Blizzard's official numbers, which everyone knows and which have no impact on the actual argument.

If one point of data can be proven to be wrong, it makes every point of data questionable. That is the actual argument, and the reason why neither you nor anybody else should trust the mmodata.net chart, or keep posting it because it's proven to be wrong.

[Deleted]

This is obviously what absolutely nobody wants, so no.

FWIW, I am a HM raider, this idea sounds crap to me.



For all we know this guy might not even raid. Don't assume tools like this speak for raiders.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 05:23 AM ----------



In MoP there will be raid debuffs like DS/ICC and you get a Feat for beating it before the buff is applied or after turning it off.

You can turn off the DS buff right now of course, but nobody does. Because nobody actually cares, people who go on about this crap on the forums are full of it. The only people who really care about "prestige" kills are cutting edge raiders who beat everything long before the nerfs come around. Which is the only time it actually counts, if you can't beat a raid within a few weeks like Paragon, KIN, Method etc etc then you're doing it with a lot more gear than they had so it's not really the same is it?

If you want "prestige" or whatever you'd call it, join Paragon/Method/etc and get a full clear in a few weeks. Otherwise stop obsessing about things like nerfs, the "challenge" is long gone probably before you even got your 2pc.

Thank you, that was spot on. It will be very interesting seeing how many will earn the FoS in MoP for defeating the bosses without the nerfs. Especially getting the feats before the nerfs even kick in. Those players/guilds are the real h/c raiders imo. Just see the incoming nerfs as yet another thing to beat.

Personally I don't mind them as they help the guild I'm in as we are not a cutting edge group of raiders.

[Tomana]

Let me get this straigt. Because you can't devote the time needed to raid the game has to be dumbed down to a level where it's not even fitting to call it raiding. And for the love of god, stop use that "snowflake" argument, it is pathetic.

No but you can create a difficulty level suitable enough so they can see the raid. No onevis suggesting that evrryone should be facerolling HMs.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 01:25 PM ----------

Seems to me like you're not a big fan of people who like working hard as individuals. umadbro?

A VG is not a work. You want to achieve something, start with your job.

[Deleted]

It does not match with what Blizzard officially published. You really can't see it?

Can you post the numbers that don't match then? The ones you posted previously matched exactly (11.5M during 2009, 12M mid 2010).

If one point of data can be proven to be wrong, it makes every point of data questionable. That is the actual argument, and the reason why neither you nor anybody else should trust the mmodata.net chart, or keep posting it because it's proven to be wrong.

But you haven't proven any data points wrong, all the ones you posted matched exactly what was in the chart.

[Deleted]

Do you even consider this ridiculous proposition to be serious ? I'm spent nearly one page explaining how progression is interesting if it's MEANINGFUL, and you're giving me this garbage about playing make-believe (and magically having people playing along this idiocy) ? Is it a troll or did you not even read the point ?

And well, if you're going with such reasoning : why don't you wait for the next expansion to discover the content of the previous one, rather than asking for LFR, nerfs and the like ?

I read your post and my answer was the one above. And it was not a troll post, it was a suggestion but it seems it did not land too well with you. You on the other don't read what I wrote. I did not ask for LFR anywhere nor did I ask for any nerfs. I said I appreciate the nerfs. Two entirely different things.

It is hilarious to read this thread by the way and if I was a troll, which I'm not, I'd be having so much fun baiting people on both sides of the fence.

Just let it rest, TBC will never come back but hopefully the upcoming raid encounters will be hard enough to keep even the best guilds occupied for some time. I'm sure that most of the people in this thread will have their hands full.

[Deleted]

Just let it rest, TBC will never come back but hopefully the upcoming raid encounters will be hard enough to keep even the best guilds occupied for some time. I'm sure that most of the people in this thread will have their hands full.

TBC will never come back, just like the millions of lost WoW subs will never come back. Hopefully the falling sub numbers are enough for Blizzard to keep giving you some content (they already cut content production in half in Cata compared to WotLK).

And hard encounters alone is not what keeps the best guilds playing. I was in a guild with some of the best WoW players in the world (if you trust wol rankings, at least), most of whom quit during Cata, not because the content wasn't hard enough, but because doing hard content without a sense of progression is boring and not fun.

[Jinto]

This is obviously what absolutely nobody wants, so no.

FWIW, I am a HM raider, this idea sounds crap to me.



For all we know this guy might not even raid. Don't assume tools like this speak for raiders.

---------- Post added 2012-09-11 at 05:23 AM ----------



In MoP there will be raid debuffs like DS/ICC and you get a Feat for beating it before the buff is applied or after turning it off.

You can turn off the DS buff right now of course, but nobody does. Because nobody actually cares, people who go on about this crap on the forums are full of it. The only people who really care about "prestige" kills are cutting edge raiders who beat everything long before the nerfs come around. Which is the only time it actually counts, if you can't beat a raid within a few weeks like Paragon, KIN, Method etc etc then you're doing it with a lot more gear than they had so it's not really the same is it?

If you want "prestige" or whatever you'd call it, join Paragon/Method/etc and get a full clear in a few weeks. Otherwise stop obsessing about things like nerfs, the "challenge" is long gone probably before you even got your 2pc.

People don't do it because there is no incentive to other than maybe trying out newbies once in awhile. Even though most hardcore raiders (HM raider means nothing really, everyone raids HMs) like challenge, they are also lazy. Some challenge and incentive to challenge themselves during farm may just keep people engaged. A lot of top guilds realize that and compete in time runs atm etc. The idea is to bake some sort of competition during farm into raiding as something you could do once you cleared HMs after a couple weeks.

I'll give you an example. In T12 I was in this guild that was US #6. Not Paragon & Co but decent ranking I would say. Farm came around and people started to play like shit because the content was so stupidly easy due to nerfs that a lot of people lost their focus and the guild never recovered and died in T13. In T13 I was in this guild that was US #7. Farm came around but people kept wanting to pad their meters so the guild leadership tried different strategies to get faster kill times. Some people really hated that since there was no reward other than bigger e-peen but it made farm less boring at the very least.

[RailinOxy80sAllDay]

*sigh* When will people start to fucking get it through their heads that BLIZZARD IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE RAIDING BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS. EVER. EVER. EVER.

[Ryme]

*sigh* When will people start to fucking get it through their heads that BLIZZARD IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE RAIDING BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS. EVER. EVER. EVER.

RailinOxy80sAllDay has spoken, heed his famously prophetic words.

Or, maybe you can't predict the future and entire judgement decisions of a game and it's developers both present and future.