Rogues why so many specs

[Deleted]

What I don't get is why people still answer in this thread. Superb is deaf to all presented arguments, uses the words "spec" "talent" and "perk" as he sees fit, interchanges them as needed, and just keeps on ranting that the current system is stupid.

He has no arguments whatsoever, he was not able to counter mine, and yeah well, I know this sounds harsh, but I call troll. This discussion has long ago stopped to serve any purpose and needs to be closed again.

Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.

[Deleted]

Does Sub have a Proc on its main CP - Generator?

No sub spec does not have a reaction proc

Do Assassination rogues have to take a dmg-CD-resetting mechanic into account?

Yes its called Vendetta or hunger for blood

Do I have to pool energy and use my main finisher before spaming FoK, to max out poison procs in an AoE situation as combat?
Do I have to take HaT - generated CP into account as Assa or Combat?
Do I have to time Shadowdance with my DeepInsight status to maximize its efficiency?

These Questions are personalized and as a player you can do what ever you want to do, i am not your mentor go you EJ forums. There will be no hand holding here

Rupture and SnD are both falling off, with 1,5 sec left...you have 4 CPs, but you are energy starved...does it matter which one you refresh first, depending on spec, or is there no difference?

Let them all fall off as long as you push them i dont care, This is a dps optimization question not a gameplay issue and so it is Irrelevant

Speaking of CP generation...every spec uses two main CP generators (ignoring OutOfStealth-abilities) but...is Hemo only used on a Mob below 35%? Does it make sense to spam RvS like Backstab? Is there a differerence in the numeric dmg I lose when using a Mutilate or a Sinister Strike at 5 CP by mistake?

True every spec does have 2ish combo generating ability's, whats the point of this question? are you looking for help?

Oh, and here is something to think about:

All three Hunter Specs use a pet and a variety of ranged attacks to set debuffs and interact with the generation of the hunters focus.

Yes

All three Mage specs use cast-time-spells and some kind of proc that enables them to use additional (often instant) spells. They also have debuffs.

Yes

All three Warlock specs use cast-time-spells, DoTs, procs, internal dmg CDs and a pet.

All Heal-specs ingame have at least one HoT, one long cheap heal, one long powerful costly heal, one costly flash heal and one AoE heal.

All Tank specs have mitigation CDs and a taunt.

Yes

If this game is not complex enough for your highly-advanced mind, go to russia and start a chess-career. But I have to warn you: there are only 64 squares, and they are not moving.

As you suggested i have considered your statements and i agree with the statements but i am drawing a blank here, what did you want me to consider? This is pointless fact giving.

Clearly i did not respond to you post because you have noting valuable to offer in this thread other than derailing the topic, good job by the way.

---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 03:53 PM ----------

Ok, look, I don't want to pick on your english, but you really need to clear up what you are talking about with 'perk' 'talent' and 'spec' because you are for sure using 'spec' and 'talent' interchangeably when they are totally different things, and I also think you are probably using 'perk' interchangeably with those two terms sometimes also. That is making it really hard to understand what you are trying to say.

Talent(perks) and specs.

How does that serve a different function than how we currently choose a spec? Yeah you are suggesting moving some abilities around, but you are still suggesting we choose from the same number of choices and from choices really similar to what we have now. I can't see how you can be so adamant about the fact that 3 specs is needless, but your 'fix' for the problem is nearly identical to what we have.

Exactly, Which is why i ask why do we have 3 specializations and not a full perk(newly added feature) system.
We are left with 3 specializations witch have less subsistence than the newly added talent (perk) system, this is why i ask, why the hell didn't they fully commit to the new talent system and just do away with the old system.

The reason i ask the question is because i feel like we still have remnants of the old system because we had it since the start of wow and i dont think that's justifiable anymore its seems like just being lazy or fearful of full commitment. I feel like they are treating us like kids giving us a few coins that add up to 1 euro rather than giving use 1 euro coin.

Anyways you guys have seen my arguments and i have tried to make them clearly you can accept them and take the point i make on board or just leave it, The reason i had this thread reopened is because no one is asking these questions and i wanted to.

[Kael]

These Questions are personalized and as a player you can do what ever you want to do, i am not your mentor go you EJ forums. There will be no hand holding here

Let them all fall off as long as you push them i dont care, This is a dps optimization question not a gameplay issue and so it is Irrelevant

As you suggested i have considered your statements and i agree with the statements but i am drawing a blank here, what did you want me to consider? This is pointless fact giving.

Exactly, Which is why i ask why do we have 3 talent specializations (talents or specs) and not a full perk(newly added feature) system.
We are left with 3 talent specializations witch have less subsistence than the newly added perk system, this is why i ask, why the hell didn't they fully commit to the new perk system and just do away with the old system.

If your argument is that all specs are the same, all talents are the same, all rogues are the same and play the same... then you should re-read those questions. None of them are relevant, because he's asking about abilities affect on other SPEC'S abilities, pointing out that the questions DON'T matter because they don't interact, ever, because the specs are different. I'd also argue that DPS maximization IS gameplay, and where a rogue's DPS and gameplay don't interact I can't see anything besides stealth.

As for your re-stated original purpose of the thread; you'll really have to elaborate rather than making personal attacks against people who respond to your primary argument. What exactly are you calling the "old system" and the "new system"? How I see it, the "old system" was having only talents, which you chose as you chose them, in different specializations... which was then changed to tell you to finish a specialization because it became WRONG not to... which has now become specializations that have picked the mandatory (previously talent) choices for you, and now has personalized talent decisions that you can change on the fly, which is where, I think, glyphs are (intended to be) as well. So what exactly are you arguing for...?

[Sesshou]

Yes its called Vendetta or hunger for blood

Talent specializations, Talents, specs, Talent specs and perks. Whats to get? maybe, you should be worried about your own comprehension skills and stop blathering on about nonsense. You strike me as a good combat rogue.




Exactly, Which is why i ask why do we have 3 talent specializations (talents or specs) and not a full perk(newly added feature) system.
We are left with 3 talent specializations witch have less subsistence than the newly added perk system, this is why i ask, why the hell didn't they fully commit to the new perk system and just do away with the old system.

The reason i ask the question is because i feel like we still have remnants of the old system because we had it since the start of wow and i dont think that's justifiable anymore its seems like just being lazy or fearful of full commitment. I feel like they are treating us like kids giving us a few coins that add up to 1 euro rather than giving use 1 euro coin.

Anyways you guys have seen my arguments and i have tried to make them clearly you can accept them and take the point i make on board or just leave it, The reason i had this thread reopened is because no one is asking these questions and i wanted to.

Hunger for Blood isn't in the game. No one has it anymore, and it also didn't have a cooldown. He also asked about a CD RESETTING mechanic. Vendetta has a cd, there is no mechanic involved in resetting it. The rest of his post wasn't asking advice, it was explaining to you the differences between the specs, and pointing out quite a large number you pretended didn't exist in your OP.

And ok, I was trying not to, but seriously if you want to discuss something in english learn the damn terms first. I asked for clarification a couple of times, and you clearly have no idea what those words mean. I'm now pretty sure that it isn't a comprehension thing, but an ignorance thing. You are completely ignorant of what those terms refer to and don't feel like learning so that we can understand what you are trying to say (as I am obviously not alone as some one else posted the same thing above). Unfortunately, I only speak 1 other language and I'm 100% sure it isn't your native language.

Talents are like shadow focus, burst of speed, etc. We do not have 3 choices of those, we have over a hundred choices on how to pick our talents. You are clearly using that term wrong because you keep coming back to talents and 3 choices, wtf do you mean. Either you mean specs, or you mean 3 different talents on each tier, but either way you have to specify or it makes zero sense. If you mean specs, stop using "talents" and if you meant the talent tiers, you need to mention "tiers" or your number doesn't make sense.

That post before this last one also bashed the talent system which you afaik didn't really do before, but you never explained what was wrong with the talent system itself as it doesn't fit in with your complaint as talents are independent of role therefore how many talents you have shouldn't have anything to do with role.

Do you seriously play WoW? You thought HfB and Vendetta were the same and now you are using 'spec' and 'talent' and 'talent system' and 'talent spec' like they mean the same thing which is making it really hard to see what your complaint is. You sound like some one that played a rogue in wotlk and is coming back for mists without reading any of the changes in the past 2 years.

You also have never defined "perk." Give us a definition of "perk" and an explanation of how it differs from "spec" because as I have said quite a few times, the way you present "perk" seems identical in function and number of choices to "spec."

[Deleted]

Specialization refers to the choice you make on live, the choice to pick "specialization(in game term)" "Subtlety", "Combat" and "Assassination"
This term was is commonly abbreviated to spec or talent setup, up until recently. After reviewing the naming conventions in game i see your problem.

When i say Talents i mean specializations, When i say perks i mean talents as they are now known.
The choice to make before hand the "specializations" option is the feature i want to do away with and fully role it into the "Talent - perk" system,

What else could a perk system refer to, the choices that the entire class can chose, now using the process of elimination there are only 2 systems active.
Clearly you have experience in these forums nearly 3k posts and details like this are catching you really, not likely i reckon you understood what i was saying and you are just being finicky for the sake of argument.

Answer this then when hunger for blood was removed what was it replaced with, what was it used for in pvp, and what was it used for pve.
hunger for blood was a constant 8% buff you kept up, vendetta is 30% debuff for 20 secs every 120 sec.
Hunger gave a buff of 8% per second(i think it ended that low) while vendetta gives 5% damage buff over an unending time line(1/6 of 30%), only vendetta can only be applied to 1 target, it was a nerf for pve and burst buff for pvp.

Its still irrelevant, it has no positive effect in this thread its just derailing the discussion, with nearly 3k posts you would swear you would want to skip the crap and get to the discussion, clearly you know exactly what i am saying but you elude to discussing it, resorting to jabs.

[Sesshou]

Specialization refers to the choice you make on live, the choice to pick "specialization(in game term)" "Subtlety", "Combat" and "Assassination"
This term was is commonly abbreviated to spec or talent setup, up until recently. After reviewing the naming conventions in game i see your problem.

When i say Talents i mean specializations, When i say perks i mean talents as they are now known.
The choice to make before hand the "specializations" option is the feature i want to do away with and fully role it into the "Talent - perk" system,

If you would have looked up those terms earlier it would have helped immensely.

What else could a perk system refer to, the choices that the entire class can chose, now using the process of elimination there are only 2 systems active.
Clearly you have experience in these forums nearly 3k posts and details like this are catching you really, not likely i reckon you understood what i was saying and you are just being finicky for the sake of argument.

What could it refer to indeed. As you said, there are 2 systems in place, and you kept using the names for them interchangeably when they are in fact completely separate. You also likened your "perk" system to our specs, how the hell was I suppose to know you were talking about talents the whole damn time when in your only example you mention 3 choices with the names we have for our specs.

Answer this then when hunger for blood was removed what was it replaced with, what was it used for in pvp, and what was it used for pve.
hunger for blood was a constant 8% buff you kept up, vendetta is 30% debuff for 20 secs every 120 sec.
Hunger gave a buff of 8% per second(i think it ended that low) while vendetta gives 5% damage buff over an unending time line(1/6 of 30%), only vendetta can only be applied to 1 target, it was a nerf for pve and burst buff for pvp.

I never said HfB wasn't replaced with Vendetta. HfB in pvp and pve was used for 1 thing ever, a damage boost. Yeah you needed a bleed on your target when you activate it, but you just hit it, get the buff, and can do whatever including attack a target with no bleed. Additionally, bleeding some one to prevent stealth has been around since vanilla and that strategy is completely independant of HfB. HfB was never an anti-stealth tool. HfB also had ramp up as you needed something with a bleed to turn it on. Vendetta gives you a short term dps boost restricted to a single target and could also be used against a stealth class to negate their stealth and has absolutely no ramp up for the ability itself. You are also ignoring the ability to stack vendetta with other cooldowns, such as blood lust and potions, and the fact that it is at absolute worst case up 1/6 of the time but if your fight is 2 minutes 20 seconds, you have 28.5% uptime which is ~8.5% averaged for the fight. There is also a benefit of having more burst on demand (which granted has the downside if you can't stay on target the entire duration of Vendetta).

Its still irrelevant, it has no positive effect in this thread its just derailing the discussion, with nearly 3k posts you would swear you would want to skip the crap and get to the discussion, clearly you know exactly what i am saying but you elude to discussing it, resorting to jabs.

If you would have cleared up your terms and clearly defined how you were using "perk" that probably wouldn't have happened.

And now that I actually understand wtf you are suggesting, no, that wouldn't work and would be dumb. If you slap all of our moves onto some "perk tree" that is something similar to how current talents work, you will end up with their being 1 optimal build for 99% of pve settings and 1 optimal build for 99% of pvp settings (excluding the possibility you have entire rows where the choices are all equally meaningless which is the case for pve on several tiers of our current talent tree). That kills our 3 different play styles as even blizzard admits that when you have to choose between talent X and talent Y and talent X is guaranteed to be more dps than talent Y, it ceases to be an interesting choice as everyone picks X. Thats why they dropped the old talent trees. So on your perk tree you can make us choose between say mutilate, backstab, or revealing strike, but 1 of those 3 is going to be worth more dps which means the other 2 might as well not exist. This way we get 3 specs that play differently, and hopefully play to different strengths (which at least currently it is certainly true that combat plays to a different strength than the other two) which does give us interesting choices to make.

[Deleted]

Yes its called Vendetta or hunger for blood

Okay...so Vendetta is a CD resetting mechanic instead of a dmg cooldown? Well, it seems you are the sole person aware of this...kudos to an epic fail.

These Questions are personalized and as a player you can do what ever you want to do, i am not your mentor go you EJ forums. There will be no hand holding here

Of course you can...you can decide to rum in circles around the boss and do the "cluck"-emote all fight long...but it won't do any good.

Let them all fall off as long as you push them i dont care, This is a dps optimization question not a gameplay issue and so it is Irrelevant

Mate...dps optimization IS part of the gameplay, whether you accept it or not. And it is definitely relevant...too low dps = boss does not die, which has an impact on the gameplay. Simple as that. But I get it why you can't accept these simple facts: Because these reveal the major flaw in your "argumentation": You can say that all three rogue specs are the same, because you CHOSE TO IGNORE their differences, and try to disregard them based on no argumentative background whatsoever.

As you suggested i have considered your statements and i agree with the statements but i am drawing a blank here, what did you want me to consider? This is pointless fact giving.

I am trying, pointless as that may be in this case, to show that your entire argument is applicable not only to the rogue, but to EVERY CLASS OR ROLE INGAME, simply because the only basis you have, is heavy denial on your end.

[Sesshou]

I am trying, pointless as that may be in this case, to show that your entire argument is applicable not only to the rogue, but to EVERY CLASS OR ROLE INGAME, simply because the only basis you have, is heavy denial on your end.

If it makes you feel less like you wasted your time, I'm pretty sure everyone else got the point you were trying to get across with that. In fact it isn't just applicable to the game. Everything is exactly the same as everything else if you allow for a long list of exceptions. Which goes back to what I said in the first place, his assumption is false because they are in fact not the same (because differences specifically stated in this thread exist) which means his whole argument falls apart as the fact that a false statement implying anything is always true and therefore has no possible logical value.

[Vaelyn]

With mages the spells they use changes the rotation changes

what do we do?

Its just silly, turn the numbers off and the gameplay is the same, so why have 3 unique butterflys when 1 fat one could do it all

With the perk system we are already halfway there why, whats the point, they clearly recognize that some classes should fill 3 and now 4 roles

Why do hunters, mages, warlocks and rogues have 3 specs

Why ?

Is it just the case of well everyone has 3 specs and so you get 3?

I have played wow for so long and everything feels the same now

I just dont get it

I'm assuming you don't actually play the other two classes... or at least you don't know how to do so well. All 3 specs of Rogue feel very different and play differently. There are mechanics that each deal with that the other two do not have to and the CD's they utilize are very different as well. As you know, because Stealth is only useful for using abilities from behind, Shadow Dance is only fully utilizable from behind your target. Because Adrenaline Rush's cd is reduced by finishers, it can be used more often if planned well, and Bandit's Guile throws in an extra mechanic to separate amateur Rogues from elite. Assassination doesn't have to focus too heavily on maintaining Slice and Dice, but keeping their bleed up on multiple targets gives them more energy to fuel their more expensive builders than the other two specs. They also watch out for Blindside (not to mention pay attention to the boss's health) to Dispatch instead of Mutilate (which is much cheaper and gives them stronger DPS). If you are so bored with your class, repec. The three classes are completely different. You're either highly ignorant or a troll. I'm assuming the former in hopes of not wasting my time pointing the above out to you.

[Deleted]

With mages the spells they use changes the rotation changes

Okay now...would you care to explain how the above quote, and this one...:

Let them all fall off as long as you push them i dont care, This is a dps optimization question not a gameplay issue and so it is Irrelevant

...go together in any feasible way?

A mage could use one single spell for an entire enounter, because according to you, any extra work is just "irrelevant dps optimization"...yet you use the same argument in favor of your anti-rogue rant and against it...

This conversation is over, I think anyone can clearly see now, how this works...you ignore facts where they don't fit your opinion. Again, I call troll.

[Deleted]

I wont be explaining anything for you, your off topic,

Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.

[Deleted]

well i saw the OP talking about a 4th spec for everybody since the druids got one , what type of 4th spec would we rogues want ?
I dont really know , maybe sometime in the furture all other classes might get a 4th spec but if we did i'd go for a spec that used a 2handed weapon , sort of like a samurai stealth assassin .

I am still loving playing rogue since i started my rogue at the end of wrath, and still looking forward to MoP

[Kael]

well i saw the OP talking about a 4th spec for everybody since the druids got one , what type of 4th spec would we rogues want ?
I dont really know , maybe sometime in the furture all other classes might get a 4th spec but if we did i'd go for a spec that used a 2handed weapon , sort of like a samurai stealth assassin .

I am still loving playing rogue since i started my rogue at the end of wrath, and still looking forward to MoP

I can't imagine this going well >< or what we'd need a 4th spec for, although I've heard some entertaining ideas before. 2-hander rogues just makes me think of 3.5 D&D games and the phrase "sneak attack with a bastard sword!" which never made sense, really, at all. Made for some good laughs?

I wont be explaining anything for you, your off topic

If pointing out that your primary argument is self-contradictory is off-topic, what's on-topic?

[Kelticfox]

Things are getting personal and people have been infracted already.

Back on topic please...

[Deleted]

Things are getting personal and people have been infracted already.

Back on topic please...

Flying Fox of the Yard!?

(cookies to whoever got the reference!)

---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 09:26 PM ----------

On the topic, what is the actual question? I've tried rereading the OP, but he seems never to have heard of sentence structuring, grammar, or punctuation. I'm having a hard time understanding what he's trying to say.

I read some of the posts here on page 4. Why doesn't the OP utilize the already-established terms? What the hell is a "perk"? This isn't Call of Duty. How can you have "played wow for so long" and not know what a talent is? Or rather, know what a talent is, but not call it as such?

I'm very confused.

[Sesshou]

Flying Fox of the Yard!?

(cookies to whoever got the reference!)

---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 09:26 PM ----------

On the topic, what is the actual question? I've tried rereading the OP, but he seems never to have heard of sentence structuring, grammar, or punctuation. I'm having a hard time understanding what he's trying to say.

I read some of the posts here on page 4. Why doesn't the OP utilize the already-established terms? What the hell is a "perk"? This isn't Call of Duty. How can you have "played wow for so long" and not know what a talent is? Or rather, know what a talent is, but not call it as such?

I'm very confused.

His argument, as best as I can understand, is that all of our specs are completely identical and thus redundant unlike druid's specs. They should therefore be removed and all abilities should be put into some kind of feature like the 5.0 talents where you can just pick whichever (he would call choosing options in this new feature 'picking perks').

Which as I said before and will say again, has no logical value as his premise is false and is a dumb idea because if you make people choose between dps talents, they will "always" just choose the one that gives more dps therefore giving us 1 play style instead of the 3 we currently have.

As for your second point, omfg exactly my experience for three pages. Its incredibly hard to understand the point when its written like that and non equivalent (but commonly used) terms are thrown around interchangeably in addition to another term that was introduced and never defined.

[Deleted]

His argument, as best as I can understand, is that all of our specs are completely identical and thus redundant unlike druid's specs. They should therefore be removed and all abilities should be put into some kind of feature like the 5.0 talents where you can just pick whichever (he would call choosing options in this new feature 'picking perks').

Which as I said before and will say again, has no logical value as his premise is false and is a dumb idea because if you make people choose between dps talents, they will "always" just choose the one that gives more dps therefore giving us 1 play style instead of the 3 we currently have.

As for your second point, omfg exactly my experience for three pages. Its incredibly hard to understand the point when its written like that and non equivalent (but commonly used) terms are thrown around interchangeably in addition to another term that was introduced and never defined.

What you describe actually echoes some form of valid design, but the reasoning to support that design change is non-existent. Being able to "choose your rotational skills" and thus, custom-fitting your own rotation doesn't sound bad on paper(it's not something I'd want in wow, but I'll grant him that it sounds like a solid way to design a game). You could make a Combassassination rotation, or a Subat rotation(it would be nigh impossible to balance this, making it impossible to implement in wow either way...) This sounds somewhat like what wow COULD have become if it was Diablo 3.

As for his actual argument; It's very weak and strangely put together. At one point, he says "rogue specs are too identical compared to mage specs, which are all unique" but he then continues to say "ALL PURE CLASSES SHOULD ONLY HAVE ONE SPEC". But doesn't that contradict his previous statement of mages and locks being "fine"?

And why make such a drastic change anyway? If rogues are the "odd-one-out" why not just change rogues to be as unique as the rest, instead of changing the rest to be as homogenized as rogues? That's a very roundabout way of doing things.



I will agree with him when he says the rogue class needs some work for each spec to become unique. I strongly disagree with the solution he presents.

[Sesshou]

I will agree with him when he says the rogue class needs some work for each spec to become unique. I strongly disagree with the solution he presents.

Oh I don't think anyone disagrees that it would be better if our specs became more unique than they currently are. Or do they?

[Deleted]

They must either become unique or be rolled into what already exists

[Sesshou]

They must either become unique or be rolled into what already exists

The uniqueness has already been countered by numerous examples and shown as untrue. You also have given absolutely no logical argument for WHY they need to be "rolled into what already exists."