KKK Leader and Civil War General statue controversy

**v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk** · 2012-09-13, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Kalyyn

So we're okay with whitewashing history now? We just gonna have American history re-written by Disney studios while we're at it?

Remembering something isn't the same as commemorating it in the way that a statue like this does. Stopping statues of bad people from existing isn't white washing history.

**Ephialtes** · 2012-09-13, 01:12 AM

So Forrest and Rommel have another similarity. Both are studied in military academies for their contributions to the fields of strategy and tactics. The inscription on the monument refers to his contributions as a cavalry officer. The arguments is that because of his legacy as a racist, and as one of the leaders of the KKK, he should not have this monument. If that was what the monument celebrated, i could at least sympathize with this opinion. It doesnt though.

The thing is that the right to freedom and speech and expression, which gives the ability to create this petition and protest, also is what protects the monument.

**Kalyyn** · 2012-09-13, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Bergtau

Remembering something isn't the same as commemorating it in the way that a statue like this does. Stopping statues of bad people from existing isn't white washing history.

All great men have done things that others have deemed evil. The statue honors the good that this man did, regardless of the evil that accompanied it.

Also, it's on private property so your argument holds no legal validity.

**s810** · 2012-09-13, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Bergtau

Remembering something isn't the same as commemorating it in the way that a statue like this does. Stopping statues of bad people from existing isn't white washing history.

so should we tear down the robert e lee statue

because he fought for the confederates as well.

**Kalyyn** · 2012-09-13, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by s810

so should we tear down the robert e lee statue

because he fought for the confederates as well.

Despite being a Northerner, I would be deeply offended if this country ever started vilifying Robert E. Lee.

**Mormolyce** · 2012-09-13, 02:03 AM

Apparently his direct involvement in the massacre at Fort Pillow is the subject of historical controversy, troops at the time claimed it did not surrender and the retreating troops continued to fire on the advancing Confederate forces. Contemporary Union accounts claim it was a massacre. Similarly his exact involvement in KKK activities after the war are not known.

Still, pretty stupid to make statues commemorating the first Grand Dragon of the KKK.

**Cablecow** · 2012-09-13, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Wildtree

you didn't understand lick, did you?
Drop the "you must be a nazi".
I write again. slow. so maybe your slow thinking process can catch up....

I compared 2 Soldiers... 2 Generals...
Both have been given credit for their achievements during the wars they both fought.
Both have committed crimes.
One of them did not receive any kind of monument, statue, bust or the like. Just a memorial plate at the place he died. Because of the crimes he took part in.
The other one received a monument with a bust on top and his titles, including the ones with which he committed the crimes engraved onto the monument.

See the discrepancy now?

How are you so stupid ?

there are a lot of people who hate blacks here , similar to how Brits hate Indian people

they will make up the excuse that hes honorable and all sorts or crap so that can justifiably idolize him

If there was some Indian hating English figure don't act like there wouldn't be a statue of him somewhere in England ..... with crooked teeth and all

so dont play that holier than thou shit

Compare the fued between the north and south to that of the English and the Scottish , imagine the kinda hate there would be if you were different colors ?

so seriously , stop this shit ...

Keep it civil

**Alixie** · 2012-09-13, 02:33 AM

Omg...Mama Gump was a nazi supporter!

**Bryntrollian** · 2012-09-13, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by ptwonline

Just a statue of Hitler? Probably not. But I would expect there to be a lot of displays in museums and eventually monuments around that have something to do with that part of German history.

No one talks about that timeline, its almost as if it doesn't even exist...

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 10:35 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Mormolyce

Apparently his direct involvement in the massacre at Fort Pillow is the subject of historical controversy, troops at the time claimed it did not surrender and the retreating troops continued to fire on the advancing Confederate forces. Contemporary Union accounts claim it was a massacre. Similarly his exact involvement in KKK activities after the war are not known.

Still, pretty stupid to make statues commemorating the first Grand Dragon of the KKK.

Not really stupid if you are a supporter of the KKK

Deleted · 2012-09-13, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Bryntrollian

Not really stupid if you are a supporter of the KKK

Since supporting the KKK is actually quite stupid, then logically it follows that raising a statue in honour of a member of said cult is indeed stupid.

**Nadev** · 2012-09-13, 05:09 AM

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Civil War general (Union or Confederate) who wasn't at least a closet racist.

**Ashnazg** · 2012-09-13, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Grimord

Since supporting the KKK is actually quite stupid, then logically it follows that raising a statue in honour of a member of said cult is indeed stupid.

That does not follow logically at all.

Honoring someone who was a member of KKK is not the same as honoring KKK.

**Kalyyn** · 2012-09-13, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Davendwarf

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Civil War general (Union or Confederate) who wasn't at least a closet racist.

Or anyone from that time period in general. Ideas that we now consider highly offensive were, at the time, accepted as fact.

**Nadev** · 2012-09-13, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kalyyn

Or anyone from that time period in general. Ideas that we now consider highly offensive were, at the time, accepted as fact.

Or at least tradition not worth changing. The only people in the 1860s that truly wanted slaves to be free: black people.

**Kalyyn** · 2012-09-13, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ashnazg

That does not follow logically at all.

Honoring someone who was a member of KKK is not the same as honoring KKK.

Good point. Otherwise, the Lincoln Memorial is a statue honoring the Republican Party.

And the Clinton Library is a monument to the Little Rock Rugby Club...

**Valort** · 2012-09-13, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Grimord

In line with my previous post, going through American news brought another controversial news piece to my attention:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...ntroversy?lite

Long story short: Apparently that guy was not only a Confederacy General, he was also a "Grand Wizard" of the KKK and, according to records, a brutal and vicious one at that. Some of the things that are said to be his doing are just... Gruesome, and people are still kind of idolizing this man.

What's your opinion on this? Once again, is my limited European view letting something escape? Is there a redemption feature somewhere that makes it okay for this man to have a statue on public land?

People still idolize Genghis Khan despite his gruesome deeds.

**Armourboy** · 2012-09-13, 05:40 AM

The thing people should remember about the KKK though, is that certain points in history it was not seen as a bad organization. At certain points in history it had millions of members, in a way it was very similar to the Masons, it was as much a status thing for some than it was anything else.

Also as several others have pointed out, there wasn't a man on either side of the war with any form of political power that cared one bit about the slaves. Anything done to help the slaves was done as much to hurt the South, than it was to actually help Blacks in the 1860's. Lincoln was perfectly willing to allow the South to continue to have slaves if it stopped war, Grant didn't care and used them as slave labor to build fortifications himself, and Sherman detested them.

Oddly enough the one man that understood better than anyone else was Robert E Lee. 2 days after he surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia, he went to church and had communion with a black man, not something most people would expect from the head of the Southern forces.

Forrest in the South is revered as a military hero, anything doing with the KKK will generally get you mocked today as an idiot.

**Doctor Amadeus** · 2012-09-13, 05:51 AM

The statue has no place in modern society, this nation is not suppossed to be about building the things that honor some of us, but creating something that can honor all of us. Erecting a statue of man whos very principles go against certain people who were vital and primary in the foundation and building this nation, i find any notion that a statue that would celibrate a man who not only fought against the United States, but also fought against the very ideas that are suppossed to be values we have now.

I would vote No, to the statue.

**Armourboy** · 2012-09-13, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mall Security

The statue has no place in modern society, this nation is not suppossed to be about building the things that honor some of us, but creating something that can honor all of us. Erecting a statue of man whos very principles go against certain people who were vital and primary in the foundation and building this nation, i find any notion that a statue that would celibrate a man who not only fought against the United States, but also fought against the very ideas that are suppossed to be values we have now.

I would vote No, to the statue.

You wanna start another Civil War? Just walk into the South ( especially Virginia) and tell them you are going to remove every statue and any other semblance of Robert E Lee. Please remember when you make broad statements like this, that not every man that fought for the South did so because they agreed with slavery. Many men ( especially Robert E Lee ) chose to fight on the Confederate side because they could not stand the thought of raising arms against their own state.

States back then were much more important to individuals, especially in the South. While slavery was a major issue in the war being fought, it wasn't the only one. Many men did not believe the Federal Government had the right to tell states what they could or couldn't do when it came to issues back then, which is the reason it is often stated that the Civil War was just as much about States Rights as it was about Slavery.

**Booshman** · 2012-09-13, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Kalyyn

Good point. Otherwise, the Lincoln Memorial is a statue honoring the Republican Party.

And the Clinton Library is a monument to the Little Rock Rugby Club...

Neither of those examples of yours are comparable to building a statue of someone who was the Grand Wizard of the KKK. Just when I begin to wonder if I'm being unfair in not giving you the benefit of the doubt, and thinking that you aren't yet another white person who tries to rationalize bigotry, you get "comfortable" make posts like this an ones in this thread. Endorsements like this one, that stem from an effed up moral compass, are one of the main reasons why white people are still viewed as being "continuously evil". Which makes all the white whine (especially to other whites) about being vilified in history books fall on deaf ears. Not to mention creating lots of eye rolling and a decrease in what little empathy they COULD have had. You can't have it both ways. Either clean up your list of "heroes", or keep the status quo of "not giving a crap about your feelings" in effect.

The choice is yours.

---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 02:25 AM ----------