Are you enjoying the endgame?

[Fencers]

GW 2 has the same type of content as any other MMORPG. More PVP than most I suppose. The problem with GW 2 is it has no significant progression which is a fatal flaw.

Just a reminder: the first 4 games in the Guild Wars series had a similar progression model. Those games were successful enough that we wouldn't even be talking about Guild Wars 2 if the design philosophy was actually faulty.

[Deleted]

I don't see how you got that from my quoted post, or any of my posts. Matter of fact, I've been complaining that that's the problem with this game. MMORPGs are still RPGs and the main point of them is progression, challenge, items/loot and a sense of accomplishment. They kind of removed or altered all of that in the game and a lot of people don't like it. Like I've said before, the leveling process is amazing. But once you finish leveling...it gets old real fast. I also hate how you don't really socialize in this game. You're never encouraged or need/want to group up with anyone. Just running around from one zerg to the next is where you'll get max xp/loot/monies.

Problem I had right here. I think GW1 did it well because hitting the level cap was just a part of gameplay. The game got more difficult after cap. You capped at 20 but you weren't done with the story. The monsters went up, levels 20, then to 22, 24, 26, 28, even 30 (Those bone dragons in FoW).

The thing is, progression still existed in GW1 because you were still on a set story mission well after level 20, and there was an expansion especially dedicated to level 20s. When I hit level 20, I was in the Crystal Desert. Was I done? Nope, still had to finish that, then do the southern shiverpeaks, then the ring of fire island chain. Because the levelling in GW2 lets you explore anywhere, the PvE after level cap is incredibly lackluster. I don't feel motivated to go to another zone because sure, playing is fun, but there are other games that have a better combat system and are more fun to play.

I think that, even though the personal story carried on past level 80, this wasn't enough and Orr is so incredibly broken and difficult in some places that it's not fun anymore. You had at least 3 more archetypal environments (desert, tundra, volcano) before you were finished with the GW1 campaign. And for factions - City, Echovald + Jade Sea. And for nightfall! Desert, sulphurous wastes, realm of torment. GW2 lacks this and it's why it's less fun for PvE players who don't like grinding dungeons.

[Jovanaar]

I'm still waiting to explore more of the Maguuma, Desert, Blood Legion Lands, Southern Shiverpeaks, Northern Shiverpeaks and the Fire Island Chains...

Very unlikely that these will come with an expansion.

[Rukh]

Just a reminder: the first 4 games in the Guild Wars series had a similar progression model. Those games were successful enough that we wouldn't even be talking about Guild Wars 2 if the design philosophy was actually faulty.

Unfortunately time moves in a forward sort of motion and what may have been ok at one time may not be ok at another time, so I have to say that given the age of GW1, this is faulty.

Furthermore as people said, GW1 actually was not like this. Just because you stopped leveling doesn't mean you stopped progressing.



And besides, I knew way more people who thought GW1 was an awesome game they didn't play anymore than that still played. ; )

[Fencers]

It's not. Just a different style of game.

Also GW1: Prophecies was a contemporary of WoW and other 04-05 MMOs. We're only ~5 or so years from the last [& only expansion] of GW1, Eye of the North. Which was the time period GW2 was developed.

So like, time didn't move forward much for the design choices we have seen in MMOs from 2004 through 2008.

Lastly, the first Guild Wars games had fans and players right up until the day GW2 launched. There are still people in GW1 now. It was obviously a style of game design many enjoyed. People would have had to like, not play the Guild Wars series or the series need[ed] to be mired in unplayability for any of this to be "faulty".

Game design is not a matter of opinion. Enjoyment is.

[Rukh]

It's not. Just a different style of game.

Also GW1: Prophecies was a contemporary of WoW and other 04-05 MMOs. We're only ~5 or so years from the last [& only expansion] of GW1, Eye of the North. Which was the time period GW2 was developed.

So like, time didn't move forward much for the design choices we have seen in MMOs from 2004 through 2008.

Lastly, the first Guild Wars games had fans and players right up until the day GW2 launched. There are still people in GW1 now. It was obviously a style of game design many enjoyed. People would have had to like, not play the Guild Wars series or the series need[ed] to be mired in unplayability for any of this to be "faulty".

Game design is not a matter of opinion. Enjoyment is.

That's probably why every mmo in the past howeverlong has bombed. And game design is very much a matter of opinion. Different people value different outcomes that change the design. What is great design to CCP is not going to be great design to Blizzard.

[Fencers]

That's probably why every mmo in the past howeverlong has bombed.

Erm. By what bizarre and [likely] biased measure pray tell?

And game design is very much a matter of opinion.

It isn't. Even the qualifier of "great design" is used incorrectly in this context.

Game A has character momentum.
Game B does not have character momentum.

That's game design. Nothing subjective about that.

Whether you enjoy character momentum is the subjective bit. And really, whatever. Personal opinion is usually worthless or anecdotal.

[Deleted]

Acctually there is more to farm(do) in GW2 than in WoW . Outside of map completion, full exotic gear and jumping puzzles, to progress with achievements you have to do dailies eveyday, complete all paths in all dungeson (8x4 i think), lvl 5 different races to 80, max all professions and get legendari(es), achi is 5 legendaries I think. On top of that you have balanced structured pvp and wvsw which people seem to enjoy a lot. Needless to say scaling system makes it worth to make use of all zones, not only max lvl ones.

It's just not limited by weekly reset nor forced by "progression-carrot". If you removed weekly reset from WoW people would get bored really fast.

Blizzard gives you 1 cookie every week, ANet give you pack of cookies, it's up to you to be mature enough to not eat them all and puke.

[Slaughty8]

The list:

exploring the map - booring, while it's nice to have a wonderfull word ingame, I would never bother exploring it and waste time in order to stare at pixels. real life and its art is much better place for it
farming gear - booring, waste of time, better farm real life - meeting ppl, spending time outside/with friends etc
achievements - who the hell cares? wow u have achieved smth that programmers made to sank your time...
dailies - who the hell is sane enough to repeatedly do the same quests and achievs day by day? Devs farm your time here.
dungeons - one of two (second one WvWvW) things worth doing but only with ppl u know
leveling each race and/or class - doing the same 10 times in a row? one must be bored as hell
leveling professions - for what, if the crafted gear is not bought? staring at the screen and making new entries to the database?

And this pretty much sums up stupidity of playing MMOs made only for money..

[Deleted]

Wait...so exploring the map, farming gear, achievements, dailies, dungeons, leveling each race and/or class, leveling professions and PvP and all that count as content in GW2, but you ignore all that in WoW and just put "raiding" in its' column?

Doesn't make a lot of sense. If you want to make a case for GW2 just being a better game, that's fine. People trying to claim that it has way more content or something is a losing battle though - if nothing else it's a very old game with tons of time to have created content.

I have never said Wow has nothing but raids. I refered to (as you might notice when you check topic name) to topic which is end-game, aka what to do at max lvl. While you don't really see people considering old content in WoW as end-game, all zones in gw2 can be considered as end-game because that's how game is designed and that's what people at lvl 80 also do (if you refered to that).

[Treecko]

The list:

exploring the map - booring, while it's nice to have a wonderfull word ingame, I would never bother exploring it and waste time in order to stare at pixels. real life and its art is much better place for it
farming gear - booring, waste of time, better farm real life - meeting ppl, spending time outside/with friends etc
achievements - who the hell cares? wow u have achieved smth that programmers made to sank your time...
dailies - who the hell is sane enough to repeatedly do the same quests and achievs day by day? Devs farm your time here.
dungeons - one of two (second one WvWvW) things worth doing but only with ppl u know
leveling each race and/or class - doing the same 10 times in a row? one must be bored as hell
leveling professions - for what, if the crafted gear is not bought? staring at the screen and making new entries to the database?

And this pretty much sums up stupidity of playing MMOs made only for money..

Uhhhh.. what? Why are you even on the internet if this is your view? Because honestly, your opinions here can be applied to any game on the market, not just MMO's, but any game. Seriously.. I don't understand why you are on a gaming discussion board if you find every part of a game to be stupid.

[Slaughty8]

Uhhhh.. what? Why are you even on the internet if this is your view? Because honestly, your opinions here can be applied to any game on the market, not just MMO's, but any game. Seriously.. I don't understand why you are on a gaming discussion board if you find every part of a game to be stupid.

Just wanted to remind some of you gamers how non-gamers (like my wife and friends) see this stuff Of cours they play...but from time to time like 2-4h/month a single player game or iphone/android/console game:P And after 8 years of online gaming I found that I am gonna do the same, because I've lost 8 years of my life by playing online games.

[parcus]

I have never said Wow has nothing but raids. I refered to (as you might notice when you check topic name) to topic which is end-game, aka what to do at max lvl. While you don't really see people considering old content in WoW as end-game, all zones in gw2 can be considered as end-game because that's how game is designed and that's what people at lvl 80 also do (if you refered to that).

Ikr? When I play WoW I can't stand going back to old content unless I'm playing alts, and if I outlevel a zone, I also can't stand it even on lowbies alts (for some reason this happened all too often in cataclysm zones). On the other hand in GW 2 it is fun. In the end I do play those things in gw 2 at max lvl but I don't in WoW, so I guess it is just a coincidence I don't consider that as end game in wow. It is all a conspiracy I guess.

[Rukh]

They really need to add a better incentive to go back and do those other things though. Map completion is fine and all, but it would be nice if they had some more unique things, rare recipes you get from hearts, or ingredients, or unique dyes that can only be found by completing an area, etc.

---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 01:12 AM ----------

Erm. By what bizarre and [likely] biased measure pray tell?

There's been a few that people still marginally play, but none that have been big successes, not compared to all the PvE games that keep moving genres forward. People are still trying to remake WoW 10 years later. GW2 got a lot right in that they did their own thing, and hopefully it works out. I think it will if they just add a few things, but it's going to depend on what they do. People will level and leave like SWTOR or they will play it for a long time, it's up to arenanet.

It isn't. Even the qualifier of "great design" is used incorrectly in this context.

Game A has character momentum.
Game B does not have character momentum.

That's game design. Nothing subjective about that.

Whether you enjoy character momentum is the subjective bit. And really, whatever. Personal opinion is usually worthless or anecdotal.

[/quote]

You're being extremely arbitrary and selective in your definitions and that's slightly dishonest.

Design is also things like permanent death, game difficulty, graphic style, etc. That's game design, and all of that is their own choice.

[Mortanius]

Are they planning to add any sort of other highend pve content or will it just be the instances? I never played GW1 so I don't know if we should expect additional content in the near future or if we just get a new expansion in a year or so.

[Deleted]

What?
It's silly to say that it's "endgame content" in GW2 to just roam around, get achievements, farm stuff, etc etc but in other MMO's it doesn't count.

Once again, I have never said there is no achis, farming in Wow, I just listed things to do in GW2 which is what people are interested in in this topic. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Regarding low lvl zones, after 8 years of playing Wow and also other mmos it also sounded silly for me first time I heard it. Just imagine that you are not one shotting pigs/bandits in elwynn forest, instead for doing quests in there you are getting JP/VP and reasonable amount of gold. Some bad ass dragons also spawns there now and then with chance to drop epics at your current lvl. It is slightly easier than mobs/bosses at max lvl but challanging enough so it's not boring. If you think it's not more rational to go back there and do this instead of comming back to "standard" enwynn forest at max lvl (abstract from RP reasons), then I wish I could explain it to you better. I don't hate WoW, still consider it as best game I ever played but maybe killing same 8~ dragons every week for 10 months and waiting 1 week for them to reset is not "the only" way to keep players happy.

[Gerion]

Once again, I have never said there is no achis, farming in Wow, I just listed things to do in GW2 which is what people are interested in in this topic. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Regarding low lvl zones, after 8 years of playing Wow and also other mmos it also sounded silly for me first time I heard it. Just imagine that you are not one shotting pigs/bandits in elwynn forest, instead for doing quests in there you are getting JP/VP and reasonable amount of gold. Some bad ass dragons also spawns there now and then with chance to drop epics at your current lvl. It is slightly easier than mobs/bosses at max lvl but challanging enough so it's not boring. If you think it's not more rational to go back there and do this instead of comming back to "standard" enwynn forest at max lvl (abstract from RP reasons), then I wish I could explain it to you better. I don't hate WoW, still consider it as best game I ever played but maybe killing same 8~ dragons every week for 10 months and waiting 1 week for them to reset is not "the only" way to keep players happy.

You're making GW2 sound way better than it is.

The whole Elwynn one-shotting thing would be comparable if you got perhaps 10 VP on a quest that you might randomly run into and an epic would cost 4000 VP.

The dragon thing is a completely static event and mindless event that spawns every 3 hours and likes to bug out completely now and again (so he never shows up again until a reset). He might drop something useful but more than likely you've already gotten an exotic via trading post or crafting that's completely equivalent. More than likely you'll only get Ecto bait or TP bait.

Also, after playing through every zone twice and Orr zones dozens of times I can safely say that there is only one event that's remotely challenging. A giant that stomps around a small town and that's only because he does cheap one-shot AoE stomps. I have afk auto-attacked tons of events while grinding a legendary.

[Deleted]

Once again, I have never said there is no achis, farming in Wow, I just listed things to do in GW2 which is what people are interested in in this topic. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough. Regarding low lvl zones, after 8 years of playing Wow and also other mmos it also sounded silly for me first time I heard it. Just imagine that you are not one shotting pigs/bandits in elwynn forest, instead for doing quests in there you are getting JP/VP and reasonable amount of gold. Some bad ass dragons also spawns there now and then with chance to drop epics at your current lvl. It is slightly easier than mobs/bosses at max lvl but challanging enough so it's not boring. If you think it's not more rational to go back there and do this instead of comming back to "standard" enwynn forest at max lvl (abstract from RP reasons), then I wish I could explain it to you better. I don't hate WoW, still consider it as best game I ever played but maybe killing same 8~ dragons every week for 10 months and waiting 1 week for them to reset is not "the only" way to keep players happy.

As has been said, it's not comparable because currently one-shotting in Elwynn has no effect other than achievements for the titles and reputation.

If you currently got an amount of VP and chances of epics in Elwynn, then I think a lot of people would be there killing level 5 mobs for their welfare epics, and if they were scaled down then I think people wouldn't bother and would instead be in the higher level areas where you would get 3-4x more VP for a little more challenge.

As in GW2. Sure you can go back to the low level zones, get a few hundred to 1k karma an event. Or you could go to Orr where everyone else is, be a little less bored because it's more challenging and get 4x more karma. Only 3 reasons I return to low level zones, tbh: 1) I like the zone (Blazeridge Steppes mainly), 2) I have % map completion to finish or 3) I have low level crafting mats to farm

[Ravenblade]

They really need to add a better incentive to go back and do those other things though. Map completion is fine and all, but it would be nice if they had some more unique things, rare recipes you get from hearts, or ingredients, or unique dyes that can only be found by completing an area, etc.

Agreed or even prestigious armour items.

On a more un-addressed note:

I think overall that using WoW as comparison the core gameplay and mechanics are still the same. They did not introduce a wholly new reward system based off something else than some form of currency. So in the same way if they decide to base their progression mechanics off GW1 they may expand on it without deviating away from it. That means there is no need for turning it into another WoW clone because even with all its flaws I am playing it mainly because it does stand somewhat apart from WoW giving you a nice alternative on the side.

[Deleted]

Just wanted to remind some of you gamers how non-gamers (like my wife and friends) see this stuff Of cours they play...but from time to time like 2-4h/month a single player game or iphone/android/console game:P And after 8 years of online gaming I found that I am gonna do the same, because I've lost 8 years of my life by playing online games.

Doing something you enjoy in life is never wasted time. By your definition then a majority of the population wastes a lot of time every weekend getting drunk, wasting money and curing hangovers or spending their life in front of the TV. I don’t see how that is better than gaming?