1. #1541
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrun View Post
    would def do a sacrifice of blood for this to happen but the buff to nv and doc in all seriousness threw me for a loop. I wonder if they have anything planned for hotw I imagine the 10% more damage to wrath bumps it up a bit
    HotW doesn't really need anything in terms of a damage buff it will still be the best choice for progression, even with the buff to DoC because it still has no NS so perfect play is still required with even less healing from HT than on live.
    and NV, lel, even when the damage is now somewhat close to HotW, NV won't heal anymore on 5.4 I think
    Last edited by Skadovsk; 2013-08-28 at 11:48 PM.

  2. #1542
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    If it didn't there would be no point to them making the change.
    why not? Maybe they just wanted them todo a litle and add more flair

    - - - Updated - - -

    So i like to think out of the box, and not sure if anyone tested thier weird case scenario.
    With our mastery levels getting higher, would it be an idea to use pounce? i forgot i had that ability but since it puts up a bleed effect, and that bleed effect should theoraticly be buffed by mastery, it seems like a decent idea.
    maybe use incarnation so that we can use it more often during the fight
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  3. #1543
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    HotW doesn't really need anything in terms of a damage buff it will still be the best choice for progression, even with the buff to DoC because it still has no NS so perfect play is still required with even less healing from HT than on live.
    It sounds like you're vastly overestimating how hard it is to play DoC with enough success for it to be better than HotW. It's not really much different than it is this patch. NS is a lot more of a supplement than a crutch.

    People really seem to hammer that point into the ground. For a new player I would agree you have a point, but saying that it's worse for "progression" when the people in question are generally going to be fairly experienced players doesn't really make much sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    and NV, lel, even when the damage is now somewhat close to HotW, NV won't heal anymore on 5.4 I think
    The damage should be close enough that you can call them relatively equal (aside from Hurricane), not sure what you mean by the second part though; it definitely still heals, it would be a complete garbage talent if it didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    why not? Maybe they just wanted them todo a litle and add more flair

    - - - Updated - - -

    So i like to think out of the box, and not sure if anyone tested thier weird case scenario.
    With our mastery levels getting higher, would it be an idea to use pounce? i forgot i had that ability but since it puts up a bleed effect, and that bleed effect should theoraticly be buffed by mastery, it seems like a decent idea.
    maybe use incarnation so that we can use it more often during the fight
    It would be kind of silly to add flair that also conveniently breaks your CCs for no reason. And they do scale with your mastery, btw.

    Pounce over Ravage is never worth it in a PvE context (if you're not trying to stun something), not only does Pounce do pitiful damage, it costs more energy than Ravage and does less total damage even during a Re-Origination proc.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-08-29 at 08:41 AM.

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  4. #1544
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    HotW doesn't really need anything in terms of a damage buff it will still be the best choice for progression, even with the buff to DoC because it still has no NS so perfect play is still required with even less healing from HT than on live.
    and NV, lel, even when the damage is now somewhat close to HotW, NV won't heal anymore on 5.4 I think
    No top guild feral plays with HotW during progression or farm.

  5. #1545
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    No top guild feral plays with HotW during progression or farm.
    Blatant lie. In fact any feral not seeing hotw as option for progress should not be on top guild. Hotw gives same or almost same dps as doc and in addition extremely strong tranquility which is always useful for progress.

  6. #1546
    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    Blatant lie. In fact any feral not seeing hotw as option for progress should not be on top guild. Hotw gives same or almost same dps as doc and in addition extremely strong tranquility which is always useful for progress.
    Sorry what guild are you in? Do you wanna run down the list of top 20 guilds and see what spec the ferals play during progress/farm? I think youll find im correct seeing as im in one of them.

  7. #1547
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    Blatant lie. In fact any feral not seeing hotw as option for progress should not be on top guild. Hotw gives same or almost same dps as doc and in addition extremely strong tranquility which is always useful for progress.
    The only fight that I used HotW on this tier was Horridon b/c I was lacking some hp. I tried it for council, but then my dps jumped 30k when I switched to DoC. I'm not saying that all ferals will use DoC>HotW, but why not give yourself more damage if your healers can keep everyone up?

  8. #1548
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    HotW + spell weapon + hurricane on bats of HC horrordin, is fun
    id say it realy is a dps increase to take HotW over DoC on that fight
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  9. #1549
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    HotW + spell weapon + hurricane on bats of HC horrordin, is fun
    id say it realy is a dps increase to take HotW over DoC on that fight
    But you would still pull bigger and better numbers with a DoC buffed (and rune buffed) thrash on each wave of bats.

  10. #1550
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    HotW + spell weapon + hurricane on bats of HC horrordin, is fun
    id say it realy is a dps increase to take HotW over DoC on that fight
    On a fight like horridon I honestly do not see a reason to take DoC over HotW like.. ever. Then again those "top guilds" killed that boss it without trouble (few pulls), so I guess many top ferals just did not change to HotW just because it didn't matter? Anyways stating that no good feral goes with HotW is false. The tranq might not be a big help on 25 man, but on 10 man it was surely useful.

  11. #1551
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    But you would still pull bigger and better numbers with a DoC buffed (and rune buffed) thrash on each wave of bats.
    hmm i was always thiking about DoC buffing the rik / rake on horridon while killing the adds with normal swipes & trash, but i forgot to consider buffing trash instead
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  12. #1552
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    Sorry what guild are you in? Do you wanna run down the list of top 20 guilds and see what spec the ferals play during progress/farm? I think youll find im correct seeing as im in one of them.
    I find you are wrong.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bc...1195#Stenhaldi
    Midwinter, world #4 guild. Pretty sure Stenhaldi was highest progress feral too during T15 race. Also he seems to do constanly good rankings with Hotw spec.

  13. #1553
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    It sounds like you're vastly overestimating how hard it is to play DoC with enough success for it to be better than HotW. It's not really much different than it is this patch. NS is a lot more of a supplement than a crutch.

    People really seem to hammer that point into the ground. For a new player I would agree you have a point, but saying that it's worse for "progression" when the people in question are generally going to be fairly experienced players doesn't really make much sense.
    What I was trying to say is that the talent is not losing any value even after buffing the other two 90 talents, it still has its place in raids.
    I like DoC too much to use HotW, and tend to not use HotW a lot because my guild allows, but the value of the tranq is pretty big if used right, it just has no competition in terms of saving a raid vs other 90 talents.
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    The damage should be close enough that you can call them relatively equal (aside from Hurricane), not sure what you mean by the second part though; it definitely still heals, it would be a complete garbage talent if it didn't.
    Nvm, I'm dumb I thought they had inverted the damage to heal and healing to do dmg thingy.
    Last edited by Skadovsk; 2013-08-29 at 04:37 PM.

  14. #1554
    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    I find you are wrong.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bc...1195#Stenhaldi
    Midwinter, world #4 guild. Pretty sure Stenhaldi was highest progress feral too during T15 race. Also he seems to do constanly good rankings with Hotw spec.
    I think that says more about the state of us pve guilds then anything. ive never met/played with a feral in a top guild that used hotw.

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    If it didn't there would be no point to them making the change.
    Just tried them on ptr, the rake was ticking for 200 dmg....its almost as bad as juju gnomes.

  15. #1555
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    Just tried them on ptr, the rake was ticking for 200 dmg....its almost as bad as juju gnomes.
    Bit disappointing, but then again, wasn't expecting them to do big ticks.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  16. #1556
    I was seeing a 3 set of Treants with RoR and one stack of blades doing just over 400k rake damage (or about 25k a tick). This is an addition to their melee attacks which was coming out to about half of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    Just tried them on ptr, the rake was ticking for 200 dmg....its almost as bad as juju gnomes.
    Uhh... were you not in cat form? You have to be in Cat Form or they inherit your pitiful caster form AP.

    ---

    Edit: Here's a log if anyone's interested. ~7 minutes of combat with flask/food as HotW/FoN (Treants are pets so they don't show up in my damage, you have to click the arrow next to my name on the log I linked):
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/

    Treants were 7.73% of my damage and Rake ticked a total of 144 times for an average of 33,170 damage per tick. During Rune I dumped my charges (waiting for procs inside the Rune when feasible) and outside of Rune procs I banked charges, waiting until I was about to hit 3 before spending one.

    I'm not raid buffed in this log (which means I'm missing mastery).
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-08-29 at 08:43 PM.

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  17. #1557
    Treants were ~6.5% of my overall damage across Iron Juggernaut attempts. Wasn't hit/exp capped, which would have hurt their damage a bit -- but they also have a tendency to get their rake parried (had a 6% parry rate on treant rake).
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2013-08-29 at 10:22 PM.

  18. #1558
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    I think that says more about the state of us pve guilds then anything. ive never met/played with a feral in a top guild that used hotw.
    So you're going to discredit one of the best Ferals in the world...simply because he plays in the US? Or Uses a talent you don't? Both DoC AND HOTW are completely viable. Currently DoC is only showing a 3-5% DPS gain over HOTW (Could be a bit more with the 30% DoC now, I haven't seen new calculations on that yet). Midwinter is the #4 guild in the world (Not just the US-mind you)-clearly it is working for him/them.
    Last edited by FeralSynapse; 2013-08-29 at 11:52 PM.

  19. #1559
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    No top guild feral plays with HotW during progression or farm.
    I was the feral for Midwinter for tier 14 (I put in a good word on Sten's app and the next thing I know I'm demoted to tank) and I found HoTW to be superior to DoC on all progression. You can examine the results for yourself if you'd like (all the T14 first kills I was in for were frapsed and are accessible via signature link).

    In general, I find that a 3-5% dps increase is completely insignificant versus not having to pay attention to a whole new rotation requirement in addition to having a raid saving tranq or a beastly hurricane.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-08-30 at 12:25 AM.

  20. #1560
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    I was the feral for Midwinter for tier 14 (I put in a good word on Sten's app and the next thing I know I'm demoted to tank) and I found HoTW to be superior to DoC on all progression. You can examine the results for yourself if you'd like (all the T14 first kills I was in for were frapsed and are accessible via signature link).

    In general, I find that a 3-5% dps increase is completely insignificant versus not having to pay attention to a whole new rotation requirement in addition to having a raid saving tranq or a beastly hurricane.
    well with RoR trinket this `beasty hurricane` and Wrath spamming is not worth anymore, you loosing mobility coz u have to cast, and there not much fights where u able to do it plus also need an awesome spellcaster weapon which is not dropping or taken by others, so HoTW is only for raid tranqulity cd now mostly

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