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  1. #301
    The Lightbringer Suprm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reclaimer View Post
    Give this guy a cookie! I wish people could understand this. I liked B.C....Apart from the fact that half the class's in the game was brokenat that time.
    Agreed. I think the balance was not perfect though PvP was still fun outside of Arenas and the Raiding was very smooth too. Classes had different viabilities (speccing into hybrids, love it!) and it felt generally great.
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  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    your reward is getting to be one of the strongest people in the game for a short while and titles for doing raids pre nerf. thats your reward plus the 100% mounts regular titles ect ect.
    100% mounts was LK last and Mimiron before that, not really counting recolors in FL/DS, titles would have been ok if they where removed as a reward with the nerfs but they are not, being strongest in the game for 6 weeks with the requirement to put in X hours just to beat the clock, no thanks then I can play many other games that's way more rewarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    if you're looking for recognition or respect from your peers you're playing this game for the wrong reasons
    Why can't one want reasonable rewards for time, effort and skill without having this argument come up, it's petty and flawed.

    I'll ask you the same thing, if there was no reward from doing heroic raids how many do you think would be asking for nerfs so they could experience it? And would you be ok with removal of the lower end at the same rate as the top end is nerfed?
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  3. #303
    Legendary! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    You think just because players raid that they go inspect achievement dates? This is a discussion about raid progression, rewards from it and achievements, why do you think non raiders where of any relevance to the discussion in the first place
    That doesn't answer my question. So you're afraid that other raiders that apparently care about progression and server firsts would forego checking your achievements to see if you earned them when they mattered? It's like you're saying "I don't like batting statistics because this other major league baseball player might not know how to read it, and wont know how good I really am."

    I believe that of the minority of players that do care about progression, most of them know what makes an achievement "matter."

    This is entirely a case of you wanting to make other people care about what you've done, and the simple reality that no matter how hard you try, you will not be able to.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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  4. #304
    No! WoW killed the MMO Genre with their Casualysm.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    It's like you're saying "I don't like batting statistics because this other major league baseball player might not know how to read it, and wont know how good I really am."
    Because people generally don't care to look at the dates, it's like having your batting statistics without any summary, now if the achievement it self is the summary it would be a much more correct analogy.

    Besides it's called achievement not tourist t-shirt.

    a·chieve·ment noun
    1. something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    This is entirely a case of you wanting to make other people care about what you've done, and the simple reality that no matter how hard you try, you will not be able to.
    No it's about me feeling that I got rewarded for what I did, a reward for excelling that becomes available to everyone in due time isn't rewarding nor is a date stamp on said reward, especially not when we're talking a timespan that is far shorter than that of a tiers life cycle within the segmented progression path. The whole system becomes watered down because of it, epic gear is evidence of that to give an example.

    But hey, it's just easier to make it out like I'm some ego meanie that needs people to idolize me than actually bring reasonable arguments why a date stamp on an achievement is a suitable reward for beating the hardest content in game.
    Last edited by Redblade; 2012-10-07 at 03:54 AM.
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  6. #306
    Legendary! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Because people generally don't care to look at the dates, it's like having your batting statistics without any summary, now if the achievement it self is the summary it would be a much more correct analogy.

    Besides it's called achievement not tourist t-shirt.

    a·chieve·ment noun
    1. something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed.
    Why do you care that other people don't care to look at dates, if you don't care about whether they think you accomplished something or not? (to which I have said that very few people would care to begin with)

    Anyone that does indeed care about these things would take it upon themselves to look into it, i.e, to check timestamps, progress sites, and whatnot. That very few people do this is just more evidence of how few people actually care. Making achievements larger and more flashy would only serve to placate the people complaining that they aren't large and flashy enough, not sway others into suddenly caring about them.

    No it's about me feeling that I got rewarded for what I did, a reward for excelling that becomes available to everyone in due time isn't rewarding nor is a date stamp on said reward, especially not when we're talking a timespan that is far shorter than that of a tiers life cycle within the segmented progression path. The whole system becomes watered down because of it, epic gear is evidence of that to give an example.

    But hey, it's just easier to make it out like I'm some ego meanie that needs people to idolize me than actually bring reasonable arguments why a date stamp on an achievement is a suitable reward for beating the hardest content in game.
    I would hope most people did the content because they felt it was engaging or god forbid FUN, you know, like a video game is supposed to be. If you play a video game in hopes of being showered with glory from some yet to be identified body of people, I don't know what to tell you.

    And this is all departing from the original topic anyway. There weren't any achievements in Burning Crusade. You knew what you did, and the people in your guild, and that was it. And apparently that was good enough, but now it isn't?

    Perhaps the ability to flash around achievements has allowed people to see more clearly how many other people don't care, and haven't ever cared, and that's truly what their issue is. Reality hurts sometimes, I'm afraid.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-10-07 at 07:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Why do you care that other people don't care to look at dates, if you don't care about whether they think you accomplished something or not? (to which I have said that very few people would care to begin with)
    I care what I think about the reward, how hard is that for you to understand, you obviously seem to connect both achievements without dates and heroic gear important enough to your sense of fun to justify the people it's aimed for to have it taken away from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I would hope most people did the content because they felt it was engaging or god forbid FUN, you know, like a video game is supposed to be.
    So I'll ask again, if there was no reward from doing heroic raids how many do you think would be asking for nerfs so they could experience it? And would you be ok with removal of the lower end at the same rate as the top end is nerfed? (5% buff in normal and heroic = 4 first bosses in LFR removed, 10% LFR removed completely, and so on to use DS as an example)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    If you play a video game in hopes of being showered with glory from some yet to be identified body of people, I don't know what to tell you.
    Again with the finger pointing instead of addressing the issue of lacking substantial rewards for beating the hardest content in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    And this is all departing from the original topic anyway. There weren't any achievements in Burning Crusade. You knew what you did, and the people in your guild, and that was it. And apparently that was good enough, but now it isn't?
    Back then your gear was the reward and it was more than sufficient due to linear progression and lack of free epics for everyone, you know reward being actually rewarding for the effort you put in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Perhaps the ability to flash around achievements has allowed people to see more clearly how many other people don't care, and haven't ever cared, and that's truly what their issue is. Reality hurts sometimes, I'm afraid.
    This shows how little you understand of the issue, you could take away the whole achievement system if we go back to no LFR, no normal/heroic and linear progression without welfare epics, back to a time where rewards where actual rewards. This is not to say I'm opposed to other ways to get rewarded out side raiding as well but that's another matter, lack of content outside of raiding shouldn't diminish the fun and rewards for the people who enjoy that type of content, Blizzard gets payed more than enough to make 10 times the amount of content they are now.
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  8. #308
    Legendary! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    I care what I think about the reward, how hard is that for you to understand, you obviously seem to connect both achievements without dates and heroic gear important enough to your sense of fun to justify the people it's aimed for to have it taken away from them.
    You still get the reward. You get the gear first, you get the achievements first, you get the meta mounts first. If you truly only care about what you think of the reward, then you probably shouldn't care if someone else gets that reward five months down the line. You know the reality of the situation, when you earned it, that you did it without the nerf, etc, and if you aren't attempting to impress some "uninformed onlooker," I'm still scratching my head as to why the hell this is an issue. In fact, you seem to have abadoned the point of "lots of other people care about what hardcore players do" completely.

    So I'll ask again, if there was no reward from doing heroic raids how many do you think would be asking for nerfs so they could experience it? And would you be ok with removal of the lower end at the same rate as the top end is nerfed? (5% buff in normal and heroic = 4 first bosses in LFR removed, 10% LFR removed completely, and so on to use DS as an example)
    As far as I can tell, people ask for heroic raids to be nerfed because heroic raids represent actual progression content, as in, a new fight to be tackled, and basically, something to do. If they have nothing to do, they quit. Picking up gear is what makes them do it again and again, as it's a simple way to make their numbers go up more. And while I've always been irked about Blizzard passing what is basically retuned content as something new entirely, it's the reality of the situation. And if a group of raiders requires a nerf to complete the content, it's quite obvious that it was still challenging to them. Removing LFR bosses is doing nothing more than remove content from other players. I'm fairly certain that the crowd that populates LFR is highly unlikely to move on and frequent hardcore raids. And don't even attempt to state that nerfs are "removing hardcore content," that argument has been stamped into the dust numerous times.


    Again with the finger pointing instead of addressing the issue of lacking substantial rewards for beating the hardest content in game.

    Back then your gear was the reward and it was more than sufficient due to linear progression and lack of free epics for everyone, you know reward being actually rewarding for the effort you put in.
    I've, and any number of other people, have already stated the "rewards," and they're more physical and "in your face" than they were in Burning Crusade. Furthermore, why does the color of someone's gear matter to you? You know your gear has "heroic" in italics underneath it, and if you care enough, you can look into the relative time at which another person earned their gear. As much as you might like to think you aren't, you keep intruding back upon the "Some other guy will think this guy is as cool as me, but I know he isn't" territory with every point you try to make.

    This shows how little you understand of the issue,
    It shows what little sense I can contrive out of your argument.

    you could take away the whole achievement system if we go back to no LFR, no normal/heroic and linear progression without welfare epics, back to a time where rewards where actual rewards.
    What does that accomplish for anything but the minority of players who feel the way you do? And even then, what does that accomplish in the long run?
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-10-07 at 09:48 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You still get the reward. You get the gear first, you get the achievements first, you get the meta mounts first. If you truly only care about what you think of the reward, then you probably shouldn't care if someone else gets that reward five months down the line. You know the reality of the situation, when you earned it, that you did it without the nerf, etc, and if you aren't attempting to impress some "uninformed onlooker," I'm still scratching my head as to why the hell this is an issue.
    If you can't see how the value of the reward is diminished by being common I don't know what to say really, there is a reason gold, diamonds, luxury cars and so on are valuable, same as people that are skilled at what they do get payed more then those that are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    In fact, you seem to have abadoned the point of "lots of other people care about what hardcore players do" completely.
    They still do, if I had to cover every angle in every argument my keyboard would die on me, there many aspects to a complex social game like an MMO and with it's reward structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    As far as I can tell, people ask for heroic raids to be nerfed because heroic raids represent actual progression content, as in, a new fight to be tackled, and basically, something to do.
    That's a shit argument, it's the same fight with bigger numbers, the honest answer if you would ever be able to get one would simply be that it's for the better gear as far as I'm aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    If they have nothing to do, they quit. *snip* Removing LFR bosses is doing nothing more than remove content from other players.
    But removing content for hardcore players thus making them quit is just fine right? Your bias against the hardcore player really shines through here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I'm fairly certain that the crowd that populates LFR is highly unlikely to move on and frequent hardcore raids. And don't even attempt to state that nerfs are "removing hardcore content," that argument has been stamped into the dust numerous times.
    I must have missed that, care to elaborate how removing difficulty from the highest difficulty content isn't removing it from the top end players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I've, and any number of other people, have already stated the "rewards," and they're more physical and "in your face" than they were in Burning Crusade.
    Really they are not, you talk as if you never played in vanilla nor TBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    As much as you might like to think you aren't, you keep intruding back upon the "Some other guy will think this guy is as cool as me, but I know he isn't" territory with every point you try to make.
    Again, it has little to nothing with the relative value of the reward, as I said gold is valuable for a reason, same as a reward for beating hard content needs to have a relative value for the effort, nerfs that allows others to gain the same rewards for much less effort making them common diminishes the value of my reward hence the value on my effort.

    Should state here that I haven't always been in top end guilds but still have this mindset about rewards, either you earn them or you don't, equal opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    What does that accomplish for anything but the minority of players who feel the way you do? And even then, what does that accomplish in the long run?
    It accomplishes nothing but to show that your claim that I somehow valued flaunting off achievements is false, I'd be happy with it's removal if it meant we would go back to tier gear being the reward for beating the content available instead of this bastardized version we have now.
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  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Had88 View Post
    No! WoW killed the MMO Genre with their Casualysm.
    How can a game kill a genre ? By being so good that players are ruined for other mmos ? It cant be that so you must be lying.

  11. #311
    I just watched the "2012 Rumble" between Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reilly. Bill O'Reilly says something that is so key to the population of wow. I do not agree with everything both speakers say, I just agree with this. I quote:

    In response to Romney, who said 47% of America are slackers;
    "Well he was off, by about 27%. About 27. About 20% of us, are slackers. And it's a growing industry and that is what the election is all about and that's what the country is facing right now. We are spending an enormous amount of money...on 20%..who, for whatever reason; 'nagh, we're just not going to cut it, we're not going to make a living, we're just not going to do anything, WE WANT OUR STUFF'"
    I thought, that this specific quote, matches the current population of World of Warcraft as tight as the hull of a space shuttle. The ones that don't break down, obviously.

    Oh and even better; the subject of entitlement (By J.Stewart):
    "We came to America, that had people, with people and we thought, yeah, this is nice, I think we'll have this" We are not an entitled nation, but an entitled species.
    About the people on MT.Bullshit (literally from the context).
    When you need something, it's entitlement. But when they need something; 'Hey man, it just is what it is'
    Doesn't this just perfectly reflect how the current group responds to those that want go back to an actual reward system? To be honest, I think I could go back and forth in the entire rumble and just pretty much directly match about 80% with what is wrong in WoW :P
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-10-07 at 12:23 PM.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane49 View Post
    How can a game kill a genre ? By being so good that players are ruined for other mmos ? It cant be that so you must be lying.
    It forced all other Developers to only make Casual-MMOs. Since TBC no Hardcore-MMO was released again and will never ever will..

  13. #313
    Sorry but gaming industry devolved into something which music industry devolved into already. There is no hope, unless some rich indi game developer.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Had88 View Post
    It forced all other Developers to only make Casual-MMOs. Since TBC no Hardcore-MMO was released again and will never ever will..
    Well it looks like not that many people were interested in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose19 View Post
    There is no hope, unless some rich indi game developer.
    Yeah, lets hope for some generic platformer to ressurect gaming industry.

    Wake up, indie game industry is even worse.

  15. #315
    The only way the industry will listen will be with peoples ($'s). You will have people on here argue until their faces turn blue, but WoW increased in subs during Vanilla/tBC and has stayed steady/declined since then, with spikes for new expansion releases, followed by inevitable declines soon after. Whatever reason you want to chalk it up to, fine - I don't care to argue.

    As far as tBC raiding, whether you liked it or not - it was certainly popular via sub numbers and smaller developers have recognized that and certain... servers offer that experience again. I could certainly discuss it via PM if you are interested.

  16. #316
    Herald of the Titans
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    There ar ea lot of things Blizz did really well since Vanilla, and some thing i don't agree with, if i felt like compiling a list i would, but i don't lol. But i think it is safe to assume that each and everyone of us could make such a lsit of pro's and cons of the evolution of WoW. I left the game because it just wasn't challenging anymore. The only thing the ever held me back is the few raiders who are friends of the guild and just can't seem to get their shit together. That is something that can not be changed unless you build and maintain your own guild, which i was not interested in doing. So i took what i got because well, that's the way it goes.

    Otherwise the game as a whole has been fantastic every step of the way, always been on the cutting edge of MMO Functionality. But, there comes a time when you just need to find something else to do if you are no longer entertained by your current hobby. For me, i've gone back to Console Gaming for a bit now. I might join another MMO eventually, but not until i find something that truly strikes my interest.

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