Ghostcrawler about SLT! xD

[woopytywoop]

Haha, GC trolled shaman.

Yes the guys asking the question should have asked "storm lash totem" and not "SLT" Or maybe used StLT as abbreviation.
Anyway, as lead game designer, he should have understand the question from the context.

Now he just trolled us... he gave us an answer that says dps shaman output in not balanced around spirit link utility xD
I mean it's the same as saying shaman dps is not balanced around disc's barrier.

Anyway, I'm a bit worried by his comments. Take capacitor, it takes a talent and a glyph for most efficient use. 5sec is an eternity, 3sec is less an eternity, but will require another cc. Or without glyph and TP but 5sec is still an eternity to stun the shaman or destroy the totem. GC thinks we got a great tool with capacitor, yeh its cool in pve on trash that doesn't matter, in pvp it is something you really can not rely on when you need it.

It's totally ok according to their design philosphy, the glyph doesn't boost the talent and it's choice. But I feel baseline utility in pvp is a big lackbuster unless we get glyphs to make them work. When i play my clothies it's amazing how much better they are baseline and don't depend on stupid glyphs to make their utility work.
Anyway, In pvp we have too many "mandatory glyphs" and stuff like this is really not helping us.

A good start change would be to make FS baseline what it does with the glyph and make the glyph do more initial damage for shorter duration.
Make TP baseline or capacitor stun 3sec baseline and maybe even the glyph and change the talent TP to have totem only trigger 0.5sec gcd, so ppl can drop 3 totems in 1.5sec. Or maybe a talent that when activated puts totems of the gcd for a few sec.

I know some things might seem OP, but it's a bit frustrating atm that your glyphs talent really decides what utility you will be able to use and we already need 2 glyphs just to make it viable in pvp (GoUL and GW for ele).

[Endus]

Yes the guys asking the question should have asked "storm lash totem" and not "SLT" Or maybe used StLT as abbreviation.

Just as an aside, StLT is the worst acronym option I have ever seen. Capital letters in acronyms are new words, smaller letters are secondary letters/connecting words. StLT only "works" if the totem is Storm Lash Totem. It's Stormlash Totem. If anything, it should be SlT.

[Deleted]

There's two possibilities here.

1> We're balanced with the damage from Stormlash included. In this case, Elemental and Enhancement should be just fine for MoP, a bit stronger for 25-mans, a bit weaker for 10s, and our personal DPS on meters will seem a bit low, but will be offset by Stormlash Totem. This is what I've been suggesting is likely the case.

2> We're NOT balanced with the damage from Stormlash included. So it's a bonus few million damage per boss fight for each Shaman you bring. If this is the way it is, then we're easily one of the best DPS classes in the game, if not THE best, and the ones most prone to class stacking.

There are no other options, really. If I'm wrong, and GC did mean Stormlash Totem rather than making a joke/mistake about the guy's use of "SLT" (on his Twitter no less, which he admittedly fires off between meetings when he can, not the most error-checked system), then that could only possibly mean good things for Shaman performance in MoP.

How do you think, dmg buff, provided by armor debuffs should be given to the class giving it ? DMG bonus from crit raid buff ? Any other raid buff, provided by some class ? Is a common practice to include tricks of the trade buff to the rogue damage and PI to priest damage ?

[straws]

Greg Street ‏Ghostcrawler

Same answer. We don't penalize DPS for utility any more. (Sorry my sense of humor doesn't translate via twitter.)

There you go .. he was trolling indeed with some word play :P

[Endus]

How do you think, dmg buff, provided by armor debuffs should be given to the class giving it ? DMG bonus from crit raid buff ? Any other raid buff, provided by some class ? Is a common practice to include tricks of the trade buff to the rogue damage and PI to priest damage ?

Yes, all those should be included in the class that provides them, technically. In practice, a lot of classes have effects like that, so theorycrafters tend to take the easy way out and not bother when the effect is that relatively small.

Stormlash Totem (and War Banner, for that matter) aren't as small an effect as those are, though.

This is the same rationale by which hybrids ever got a raid spot in TBC/Vanilla; their buffs were enough additional raid damage to offset lower personal DPS. This isn't a new theorycrafting concept that we're trying to create. It's how we've always established class value. There just hasn't been an effect that worked like this since the first pass at buff normalization for WotLK, so we haven't had to bother since then.

[Deleted]

yeah clear answer. Stormlash is considered as utility.It shouldnt affect personal dps.

Now we have our OFFICIAL statement Endus has been demanding from me. About time he put that stupid discussion to an end.


Big Thanks Greg.

[Deleted]

This is the same rationale by which hybrids ever got a raid spot in TBC/Vanilla; their buffs were enough additional raid damage to offset lower personal DPS. This isn't a new theorycrafting concept that we're trying to create. It's how we've always established class value. There just hasn't been an effect that worked like this since the first pass at buff normalization for WotLK, so we haven't had to bother since then.

Of course this is not new, it just devalues the bring the player concept and moves shaman closer to the old buffbot position. I can even imagine the situation, when personal shaman DPS ( if being on a normal level ) will be valued less then placing the totem in a proper time.
And also I think it will make raidleaders to choose shaman as an optional non primary target DPS class. And this will devalue shaman personal output even more.
I see your position and raidleaders will agree with you - personal output does not matter, it is all about raid output. But it is just sad to be a buffbot

[Endus]

Of course this is not new, it just devalues the bring the player concept and moves shaman closer to the old buffbot position. I can even imagine the situation, when personal shaman DPS ( if being on a normal level ) will be valued less then placing the totem in a proper time.
And also I think it will make raidleaders to choose shaman as an optional non primary target DPS class. And this will devalue shaman personal output even more.
I see your position and raidleaders will agree with you - personal output does not matter, it is all about raid output. But it is just sad to be a buffbot

Hey, I've never said I WANTED Shaman design to work that way. I'm just pointing out the reality of "competitive DPS + big raid DPS boost > competitive DPS alone".

If I had my druthers, Stormlash Totem would be completely reworked.

[woopytywoop]

Just as an aside, StLT is the worst acronym option I have ever seen. Capital letters in acronyms are new words, smaller letters are secondary letters/connecting words. StLT only "works" if the totem is Storm Lash Totem. It's Stormlash Totem. If anything, it should be SlT.

I don't care what the correct acronym is compliant with the universal "acronymisation" rules.
It's just to avoid major misconceptions as the one GC just made.
Everyone is blowing hot air and no one even knows what he meant... we're just guessing...

GC just trolled us, check how active the forums are now all due to his comment that said nothing and people takes so seriously.

[Deleted]

Hey, I've never said I WANTED Shaman design to work that way. I'm just pointing out the reality of "competitive DPS + big raid DPS boost > competitive DPS alone".

If I had my druthers, Stormlash Totem would be completely reworked.

Yes, you already stated it. But some people say that it is ok, and i even noticed that there are some shaman that like the reality of being a buff bot. ( "good old TBC times" ).

[Deleted]

Well that's that one wrapped up. Nice bit of trolling by GC but it's good he clarified the point raised. Personally this makes me feel a bit better about my Elemental in mists.

[Tharkash]

Well that's that one wrapped up. Nice bit of trolling by GC but it's good he clarified the point raised. Personally this makes me feel a bit better about my Elemental in mists.

I don't exactly feel better.. he pointedly said (later) that we're not balanced around Stormlash Totem, which puts us on the low end, as people have been pointing out. No more of this just add the totem's damage to the shaman crap, finally, but we still need a bit of a buff to be middle of the pack.

[Deleted]

I'm personally very excited by this from a Shaman point of view. Now that he has confirmed that he was indeed just trolling and that we are not balanced around Stormlash as it seemed before it means that now Shaman are going to be easily one of the most valuable specs in the game.

However, I am still not happy about Stormlash. I don't want to be underpowered, but honestly I don't want to be overpowered either. I suppose you could say single target is now our 'niche' like spread out multi target fights heavily favour DoT classes but I'm pretty sure Blizzard have said in the past they want everyone to be 'balanced' for single target and they are okay if people have niches outside of that. If our niche is that big we might be too powerful.

I take us appearing low on sims with a grain of salt due to the nature of sims and the fact there is absolutely no patchwerk fights in Mists, and there is most definitely a lot of fights where our mobility and good AoE will come in handy. Because of this I think we will most definitely be okay in practice. It seemed before that we were low mathematically which might proceed be being low in practice but if Blizzard don't see that and we have Stormlash on top we will certainly be useful.

Overall, very good news for DPS Shaman, probably bad news for class balance and even worse news for any healer that isn't a Resto Shaman or a Monk (if healers are all reasonably competative then Resto Shaman will be brought for Stormlash Totem because its purely extra that they have, except for Monks who themselves do incredible DPS as is as well, especially on AoE).

[oblivionx]

I think people should keep in mind GC has also said he doesn't get into the hybrid tax thing at all, he just avoids it.

[Deleted]

I don't exactly feel better.. he pointedly said (later) that we're not balanced around Stormlash Totem, which puts us on the low end, as people have been pointing out. No more of this just add the totem's damage to the shaman crap, finally, but we still need a bit of a buff to be middle of the pack.

I'm going to hold judgement on our general "ranking" when it comes to dps until mists release because the only numbers anyone has to cite is simcraft and they aren't accurate enough to make any conclusions at this moment in time. Having said that, if we're not balanced around the totem and we are in fact on the low side, this is probably the best news ever for dps shaman because it means we aren't being forced into this "crutch" just to remain competitive and that if we are genuinely low without it, we will be buffed.

[nazrakin]

I'm personally very excited by this from a Shaman point of view. Now that he has confirmed that he was indeed just trolling and that we are not balanced around Stormlash as it seemed before it means that now Shaman are going to be easily one of the most valuable specs in the game.

However, I am still not happy about Stormlash. I don't want to be underpowered, but honestly I don't want to be overpowered either. I suppose you could say single target is now our 'niche' like spread out multi target fights heavily favour DoT classes but I'm pretty sure Blizzard have said in the past they want everyone to be 'balanced' for single target and they are okay if people have niches outside of that. If our niche is that big we might be too powerful.

I take us appearing low on sims with a grain of salt due to the nature of sims and the fact there is absolutely no patchwerk fights in Mists, and there is most definitely a lot of fights where our mobility and good AoE will come in handy. Because of this I think we will most definitely be okay in practice. It seemed before that we were low mathematically which might proceed be being low in practice but if Blizzard don't see that and we have Stormlash on top we will certainly be useful.

Overall, very good news for DPS Shaman, probably bad news for class balance and even worse news for any healer that isn't a Resto Shaman or a Monk (if healers are all reasonably competative then Resto Shaman will be brought for Stormlash Totem because its purely extra that they have, except for Monks who themselves do incredible DPS as is as well, especially on AoE).

I doubt Blizzard is done balancing Stormlash. As I've said in the past, as long as they can keep it around 1m damage in 25m it'll be fine. Maybe a softcap that rises with the Shaman's AP/SP so that it improves with new raid tiers. Top 20 guilds may stack Shaman, but GC has also said that they aren't interested in balancing classes around top 20 guilds.

[Deleted]

I doubt Blizzard is done balancing Stormlash. As I've said in the past, as long as they can keep it around 1m damage in 25m it'll be fine. Maybe a softcap that rises with the Shaman's AP/SP so that it improves with new raid tiers. Top 20 guilds may stack Shaman, but GC has also said that they aren't interested in balancing classes around top 20 guilds.

They might also ignore shamans because they lack some other kind of utility, survival or what so ever. But SLT on top of a mediocre dps might save us a raid spot, even on bosses that have mechanics that totally destroy our dps speccs (e.g. Alysrazor).

We will have to see how it all works out. Pure dps is not the only reason why to pick a class/specc. There might be a lot other things like:

burst, survival, pure aoe dps, aoe burst dps, ranged aoe, cleave, mass slow, multidotting, raid cds, off healing/dps, execute damage, mobility, ranged/melee, utility buffs, raid sprint, raid grips (yeah <3 dks), knockbacks, haste scaling, pets and so on.

We shamans were also ignored because we lacked most of the necessary raid utility. Our dps suffered because 2 out of 3 endbosses had a haste buff. We had no burst when necessary. We lacke dthe ability to survive on ultra heroic on his own. On Morchok, enhancement was worst dd because we had no possibility to reset our stacks. On many many encounters, elemental lacked multi dotting.

That totem might be hust the push shamans needed to be always wanted in a raid. We might see what happens. If the overall package is too strong though, they should nerf/revamp stormlash first.

[nazrakin]

They might also ignore shamans because they lack some other kind of utility, survival or what so ever. But SLT on top of a mediocre dps might save us a raid spot, even on bosses that have mechanics that totally destroy our dps speccs (e.g. Alysrazor).

We will have to see how it all works out. Pure dps is not the only reason why to pick a class/specc. There might be a lot other things like:

burst, survival, pure aoe dps, aoe burst dps, ranged aoe, cleave, mass slow, multidotting, raid cds, off healing/dps, execute damage, mobility, ranged/melee, utility buffs, raid sprint, raid grips (yeah <3 dks), knockbacks, haste scaling, pets and so on.

We shamans were also ignored because we lacked most of the necessary raid utility. Our dps suffered because 2 out of 3 endbosses had a haste buff. We had no burst when necessary. We lacke dthe ability to survive on ultra heroic on his own. On Morchok, enhancement was worst dd because we had no possibility to reset our stacks. On many many encounters, elemental lacked multi dotting.

That totem might be hust the push shamans needed to be always wanted in a raid. We might see what happens. If the overall package is too strong though, they should nerf/revamp stormlash first.

I agree, there is certainly a lot more at play than pure DPS. It'll be interesting to see how things shake out.

[Blitond]

Just as an aside, StLT is the worst acronym option I have ever seen. Capital letters in acronyms are new words, smaller letters are secondary letters/connecting words. StLT only "works" if the totem is Storm Lash Totem. It's Stormlash Totem. If anything, it should be SlT.

or just ST.

[Endus]

or just ST.

Except Searing Totem is already labelled that.