Ret ranked 15th in MoP DPS Ranking

[Riptide]

12 specs are ahead of Retribution (separating Fury Warriors, Frost DKs and Windwalker Monks based on their weapons skews things out of proportion a bit, just because one weapon setup out damages another doesn't make it an entirely separate spec) while 10 are below Retribution.

All 3 Hunter specs are below Retribution. Using your own argument, Priests' only DPS spec is below Retribution. Shaman and Druids' only spellcasting DPS spec is well below Retribution. A vast majority of the rest of the DPS specs are within 5% of Retribution.

Retribution doesn't need any buffs or nerfs, in my honest opinion.

Specs that sim over 120k (8 total) need to be brought down a little, and specs that sim below 110k (6 total) need to be brought up a bit.

With a range from 110,000 DPS to 120,000 DPS, the most specs are roughly within 7-8% of each other (too lazy to do real maths). Right the difference between absolute bottom and top is closer to 25%. I'd be happy even with a 10-15% difference between the two ends of the spectrum.

Retribution is currently about 12% below Affliction (top theoretical DPS), and 11% above Marksmanship (bottom theoretical DPS).

Retribution Paladins are LITERALLY in the middle as far as potential DPS goes.

I really want to know when "middle of the pack" started meaning "absolutely terrible."

While you're right with almost everything you said and since there is a major flaw with simcraft. Which is multiple targets, movement, phase changes, etc. It's a bit more complicated than that.

An affliction locks single target dps is 12% higher than ret, but if you add more targets EVEN with movement that drastically increases the gap between the two specs. So on patchwerk fights and anything with adds the aff lock is significantly better. Now on the flip side you have burst phases with vulnerability phases as a mechanic. Well this is almost certaintly going to be the minority but you can be assured that while the paladin will perform much better on that encounter type over any other it will most likely not be enough to have it swing in the rets favor by 12%. So overall we know locks are better, not to mention they have other specs for burst to minimize the difference there. Also warriors as well as rogues are better.

Nowadays with 10man raiding being the norm and dps slots limited it makes little sense to take a dedicated ret. Now while you can still say "get friends or join a guild" and you'd be right.. that doesn't change the fact I could pug on my alt lock, warrior or rogue much easier.

Now this isn't going to stop me from playing ret but the cause for concern is there same thing on the PvP front. It's viable IF you are an above average player that know people willing to accept something that could be filled better with YOU playing a different class. Good luck convincing a pug or meeting new people that are decent in accepting you as a ret.

It's not like you couldn't look yourself in the mirror and say - If I was a warrior/rogue/lock/mage instead of ret my experience in finding pub runs and rbgs would be significantly better. What if they are a new player trying to prove themselves, forget about it!

[anaxie]

The fact that you said 15 and 4 and not 15 and 1 is testament to how unbalanced it looks on simulationcraft.

Thankfully, the parameters of simulationcraft probably don't even exist in any MoP boss fight.

Lots of fights are multi target and target swap. So ret will suffer on padding But really i never cared for the Epeen of a parse on a pad fight.
We have a few fights where ret will dominate I think blade lord in HoF IS THE ret fight. 600% incrased damage for 30 seconds after u kill adds. Hammertime guys!

Then you have things like Sha of Fear heroic going into Special phase at low %. Ret has a half decent execute damage with hammer not being laughable now imo. Lots of fights seem to have soft enrages. Again rets execute is alot better then in the past. Warriors will be OUTSTANDING for all content and fall behind meters on farms as execute times become shorter and shorter but really progression is all that matters.

THe only class i feel is FAR TO STRONG is clearly and simple. Affliction locks. They dominate single target currently on live I cannot imagine them on multi target fights come MoP. Rogues are 0 concern despite live because that is all from absurd broken daggers.

[Ryanlol]

Oh wait.. We can throw in a heal or two...

Like you said, at least you're not a Monk!

[Zalavaaris]

People like you are the reason shit like a 16k difference between #1 position and #15 is. At no point is the OP asking to be on top of the meters, he and the majority of the ret community want to be balanced not overpowered. And yet foolish people like you run your mouths that all we are doing in crying because we aren't "godly". WRONG! All we ask for is any set of meters to be within a few percent of the top, along with every other dps spec. I'm glad you and your friend who was pvping has so much knowledge of a pve issue. Next time think a little bit before posting, and save us the time and loss of braincells from reading your post.

This is the issue. The OP is asking the wrong question. Rets arent UP, the top dps classes making up the 15k differential are the issue. He SHOULD be asking why they havent been nerfed? and when we can expect them to be brought down some. Also, the classes in the sub 110-115k region should be buffed to that point.

[asharia]

sims are wrong.

[Deleted]

Ret Pallies were REALLY good in Wrath, especially around ICC timeframe. And lets not forget when wrath begun and during beta they were basically 1-2 shotting everyone...
Last time rets had the tail end of the DPS meters was in TBC. When the only reason to bring a ret pally was for there 3% damage increase...so you only brought 1 and thats it.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about really.

[Puck]

If it's really bad they'll be buffed.

[MisterSoup]

As far as from what I've seen on Beta, the Ret paladins I've been testing raids with have been performing fantastically. You shouldn't scream fire and brimstone every time the sims show up with lower numbers than you'd like to see. They only give a bit of data into how class mechanics are performing; they don't account at all for actual combat.

[Rhodekil]

Ok... so I play a hunter.... and um... I fail to see what your problem is LOL???

[Deleted]

Ok... so I play a hunter.... and um... I fail to see what your problem is LOL???

Not sure what your idea is by coming to the Paladin forums and complain about your class that is otherwise doing fine in PvE troughout the years.

[Tangra]

If it's really bad they'll be buffed.

Circular argument much? Yeah, I'm sure Ret will get buffed, several months after the content has been out and any serious guild has cleared almost everything, like during both tiers 11 and 12,

[Ahraa]

hunters say hi.

[Tangra]

Ok... so I play a hunter.... and um... I fail to see what your problem is LOL???

I fail to see what you're doing in our forum. Just because your class has problems doesn't mean ours should be ignored; man I really wish they taught philosophy more in school so that we don't constantly have to deal with people making basic logical fallacies.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 02:37 AM ----------

hunters say hi.

How about you go campaign to fix your class, instead of wasting everyone's time cockblocking our attempts to solve our issues...

[solvexx]

I think its hilarious how the game isn't even out yet and people are already crying about their class. People seem to think that paladins need the best of both worlds (pvp, pve). Although I am personally not an avid pvp'er My friend hit 2200 the 2nd week into 4.3 pvp season and didn't play his ret again, saying it was too easy. You cant expect to be on top all the time. It isn't as if their dps is so bad that no one will take them in a raid. Let someone else shine for a while.

Taking anecdotal evidence does not mean it is fact.
Take it from someone who is a multiple class 2.4k exp player(see sig) it was one of rets best seasons ever, but it was far from "too easy."
Unfortunately the synergy like sham/lock/x didn't quite exist for us. So.. was not "too easy."

[Deleted]

It says hunters are bottom. Yet on every raid fight I've done (and i've done every raid test) I'm top 5. Rets on single target were also top 5.

Classes that really should worry about single target are rogues, ferals and spriests, but not rets, not at least now.

Again, don't trust the sims, that website has been off since it was created and that will never change since as a human you can't even come close to simcraft rotations since they don't or barely have any flaw margins in it.

[Deleted]

It says hunters are bottom. Yet on every raid fight I've done (and i've done every raid test) I'm top 5. Rets on single target were also top 5.

Classes that really should worry about single target are rogues, ferals and spriests, but not rets, not at least now.

Again, don't trust the sims, that website has been off since it was created and that will never change since as a human you can't even come close to simcraft rotations since they don't or barely have any flaw margins in it.

Rogues and also Shadowpriests are more then fine on single target, yes i've done ALL the testing 10 and 25, normal and heroic.
Can't say Rogues have to worry about anything really..Also there's plenty of multidotting possible, Spriests are in a fine spot.
I'll also mention how i think Ret is a decent place aswell.. Only thing we can do do now is wait till the content get's released really, there won't be very much changes balance wise anymore anyway.

[Symetree]

SimulationCraft 505-2 (r14297) for World of Warcraft 5.0.5 BETA (build level 16048) states that Ret is outdpsed by almost all classes, except the Monk and Priest both of which have a healing spec like the Paladin.

3 Warrior specs, 2 Rogue specs, 2 DK specs, 1 Shaman spec, 1 Druid spec, 2 Warlock specs and finally 3 Mage specs outdps the Ret according to the data provided by the simulations.

I have lost words to describe how unfair this distribution is, and how Ret has been discriminated despite being the only dps spec of a class.

Oh wait.. We can throw in a heal or two...

http://www.simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

I dont know why I was even surprised for more than a millisecond someone would be crying rivers over a game that has not even seen day one yet of being on live servers because so far from set up scenarios from world best players show other classes do 2 more k than the particular class that they play . Im actually waiting on the day a thread gets started where someone is complaining about their class not doing enough damage on an expansion Blizzard hasnt even created yet.

[kosechi]

Ok... so I play a hunter.... and um... I fail to see what your problem is LOL???

hunters have a much better track record of raid viability then rets do.

rets get bent out of shape when there is even a hint of us being less then middle of the road because we spent a good 2 xpacs being non viable and we are still afraid its going to go back to that ( it almost did in t11 for instance)

[Paulosio]

Ignore the sims and wait to see how it is on live. I've been told that my class (hunter) has all 3 specs near the bottom of dps on the sims and is actually worse off than ret.... I don't care until i've actually seen what things are like on live. Not only might the sims be wrong, there will aslo be lots of of balance tweaking going on especially in the 1st couple of months of the expansion.

[Rhodekil]

Not sure what your idea is by coming to the Paladin forums and complain about your class that is otherwise doing fine in PvE troughout the years.

*Looks for part where I complained*... oh wait. Facts are a wonderful thing. My point is you lot have it better then others, so shut up.

Secondly using your very own logic I could say the same thing about rets......

Basically you along with the OP and anybody else complaining about rets currently need to harden up and accept the fact you are not OP and instead sitting smack bang in the middle of the pack where you belong.

3/4 bottom specs are hunters, but I will still be playing my hunter and not crying to blizzard about it!