So vengeance... please explain me...

[Nemo15]

Yea.. ive looked many different places without an accurate answer. How does vengeance works now? it states you get 2% unmitigated damage as attackpower. I have an addon called "Vengeance status". It looks like it caps at 65000 bonus attackpower. Ive heard that there is no cap on it. I havn't reached 65k bonus attackpower yet, but about 30k though. ending up on roughly 45k attackpower fighting a boss.

so.. im not really sure how it works exactly. Anyone that can be nice and explain me?

Edit: so i did something interesting this night the 20th.

142k attackpower reached.

imageshack.us/f/594/wowscrnshot092012230712.jpg/ see if you can use that as link. numbers are a bit small. but u can see them.

[Sterilize]

Pretty sure there's no cap to it or tanks wouldn't be hitting things for over a million after impale on madness or decimation blade on baleroc
Iirc, you gain 2% unmitigated dmg as AP (So full dmg before defensive cooldowns/def stance/blocks), then the full duration of vengeance is refreshed whenever you dodge or parry.

There was a cap before the patch so your addon could be outdated or you just haven't been in a scenario that stacks veng that high.
I'll go track down the blue post explaining it...

[TEHPALLYTANK]

No cap on it, I'll try and find the formula so you can see how it works now.

Edit: Okay, fairly certain this is the current formula 0.02 * UnmitigatedDamage + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20 I'd give you the link to the original blue post but blizz appears to be having trouble with their forums at the moment.

[Tonk]

as far as I am aware there is no cap.... WE redid BWD the other day or kicks. and the draon that hits your for a bucket load of damage gave both me and the other tank awesome amounts of vengeance. Alas I didnt have my vengeance tracker on but...sufice to say we were both above double the top dps.

so 2% of unmitiated damage as AP for seconds seconds (moving 20 second window).

1. Initial hit gives a big boost to reduce the ramp up period the first hit counts as 10 seconds worth or something. i.e. the vengeance youget from that firt hit assumes you've been being hit like that for 10 seconds already.
2. Taunting is rumoured to play with it (not sure if there is any basis to this, not tested)

[Electromatt]

Each time you take damage, you gain 2% of the unmitigated damage taken as attack power for 20 sec.

3 minute fight for example. First hit you gain 2% of it as AP. Next hit same thing but its added to the previous AP value. This continues until 20 seconds since the first hit, where the bonus AP you got falls off.

Think of a window of time (20 seconds). Add up all the 2%'s together during that time.


0s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP - Total AP: 2,000
5s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP - Total AP: 4,000
10s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP - Total AP: 6,000
15s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP - Total AP: 8,000
20s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP, minus 2,000 AP from 0s hit - Total AP: 8,000
25s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP, minus 2,000 AP from 5s hit - Total AP: 8,000
30s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP, minus 2,000 AP from 10s hit - Total AP: 8,000
35s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP, minus 2,000 AP from 15s hit - Total AP: 8,000
40s - boss hits for 100,000k - you get 2,000 AP, minus 2,000 AP from 20s hit - Total AP: 8,000

etc.

There is a maximum vengeance value if your taking the same amount of damage per 20 seconds. In this example its 8,000 AP.

[Sterilize]

And of note: The 2% applies to damage mitigated by armor*. Bleeds and Magic dmg convert 5% of damage taken.

Another interesting bit I found that I'd apparently overlooked before;

Good point! We’ll factor Weakened Blows out of the Vengeance calculations.

Anyone know if this factors into similar debuffs or was Weakened Blows just the odd one out at the time (Sept. 23)?
Mainly curious about Demo Shout.

[Nemo15]

aha. aha. i think im gonna try to find some situations where i could get lots of vengeance. thanks for the repplies guys.

[Sterilize]

Took awhile, but here's the post detailing the new system: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=186#3701

The change from 5% - > 2% of damage mitigated by armor converted happened after that.

[Raxxed]

They need to recap it.
It's extremely fun and all doing 75k single target dps and 600k aoe dps..
But it's also gamebreaking.
(That's from testing beta raids)

On live, as for the post 2 posts above me, a couple of situations:
-Chimeron. Did 129k dps last night on Heroic Chimeron.
-Madness. Take an impale, crit for 1mil executes and 700k dragon roar's
-Ultraxion. Hour of Twilight
-Spine. Stand in the explosion from the amalgamation
-Hagara. Stand in ice walls
-Sinestra. Twilight Extinction

[Sterilize]

They need to recap it.
It's extremely fun and all doing 75k single target dps and 600k aoe dps..
But it's also gamebreaking.
(That's from testing beta raids)

On live, as for the post 2 posts above me, a couple of situations:
-Chimeron. Did 129k dps last night on Heroic Chimeron.
-Madness. Take an impale, crit for 1mil executes and 700k dragon roar's
-Ultraxion. Hour of Twilight
-Spine. Stand in the explosion from the amalgamation
-Hagara. Stand in ice walls
-Sinestra. Twilight Extinction

Gamebreaking in soon-to-be outdated content which a large portion of the whole 5.0 overhaul was not designed to compliment. From the beta raids, what encounters could you outright cheese due to the new formulas/cap removal?

[Raxxed]

Gamebreaking in soon-to-be outdated content which a large portion of the whole 5.0 overhaul was not designed to compliment. From the beta raids, what encounters could you outright cheese due to the new formulas/cap removal?

I'm sorry, how is 75k single target as a tank on raid bosses in MoP not gamebreaking? Especially at 463/470 ilvl.
Wind lord Mel'Jarak. I was doing 600k aoe dps WITHOUT the damage buff.
The rest of the bosses I was ALWAYS #1 dps with my offtank at #2. No, this is not comparing my dps to random LFR scrubs, this is with my guild and more often than not I would get a few people from guilds like Supermassive and Suit up.

No-one came even remotely close to us.

The fact that I can sit there on a boss like Blade-Lord Ta'yak with 130k vengeance and just faceroll my way to 300k crits is absurd.
With ~52k vengeance (10% of my max health with raid buffs) I would be doing a respectable amount, closer to 40k, which is lower than all dps with a brain stem.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 10:50 PM ----------

The fact that dps's main job is to... you know.. dps... it's pretty disheartening when they're pulling off an almost perfect rotation and getting shat on by a tank pressing 3 buttons.

The encounters may not be cheesable but theres NO WAY this tank dps is intended. Thus the enrage timers will be tuned around some 'appropriate' dps. Tanks dps is astronomically high and the enrage timers on bosses will be a complete joke providing you don't have people dying throughout the fight.

[Sterilize]

I'm sorry, how is 75k single target as a tank on raid bosses in MoP not gamebreaking? Especially at 463/470 ilvl.
Wind lord Mel'Jarak. I was doing 600k aoe dps WITHOUT the damage buff.
The rest of the bosses I was ALWAYS #1 dps with my offtank at #2. No, this is not comparing my dps to random LFR scrubs, this is with my guild and more often than not I would get a few people from guilds like Supermassive and Suit up.

No-one came even remotely close to us.

The fact that I can sit there on a boss like Blade-Lord Ta'yak with 130k vengeance and just faceroll my way to 300k crits is absurd.
With ~52k vengeance (10% of my max health with raid buffs) I would be doing a respectable amount, closer to 40k, which is lower than all dps with a brain stem.

Break with tradition, I'd give you that - but I don't think I'd label that gamebreaking. I'd imagine tanks of every class in every raid would be pulling similar numbers (assuming equal ability) and I'm assuming you can't suddenly ignore mechanics/burn phases on adds or some such just because of this change if they weren't designed to let you do so.

It'll just be culture-shock akin to tank damage scaling stupidly high in Wrath in comparison to BC/Vanilla.
In the grand scheme of things, why would it matter where tanks sit on the meter provided they're
A) Required and
B) Can't be stacked to do obscene damage to things

Do you really think enrage timers wouldn't be tuned to account for dps numbers they've seen coming in through the entirety of their beta testing phase?

[Raxxed]

Break with tradition, I'd give you that - but I don't think I'd label that gamebreaking. I'd imagine tanks of every class in every raid would be pulling similar numbers (assuming equal ability) and I'm assuming you can't suddenly ignore mechanics/burn phases on adds or some such just because of this change if they weren't designed to let you do so.

It'll just be culture-shock akin to tank damage scaling stupidly high in Wrath in comparison to BC/Vanilla.
In the grand scheme of things, why would it matter where tanks sit on the meter provided they're
A) Required and
B) Can't be stacked to do obscene damage to things

You can actually drastically alter your strategies for add phases. I can almost solo the adds on Elegon (Phase1). Leaving 4 dps on the boss and having only 1 person switch is pretty stupid, basically nullifying the enrage timer. Take a breath with ~10 stacks, pick up the add, blow it to smithereens before it knows what happened.

That also responds to your 'ignore burn phases' part, with the Elegon adds (Sorry i'm being so picky on a single encounter, it's just easier XD). They pulsate at 20% dealing heavy raid damage. Not with me they dont.
-Add gets to 20%
-Pulsates once as I take it out of the bubble
-Execute it for 20% of it's health
-'Hey guys, isn't there supposed to be raid damage?'

True story.

I Forgot to mention, the only reason that this seems so so SO SO unintended to me, is that not every single tank class is doing this (Sorry I kind of hinted at that they ALL were above)

Prot paladins? Lolnope. They're doing the dps I would expect to be doing
Brewmasters? Pretty high, not insane. I could consider their dps to be the norm
Druids? Same tier as paladins
Blood DKs? Extremely high
Prot Warriors? Even higher.

As for stacking tanks, I can't really speak for MoP as we didn't try tank stacking, but we've tried it on live.
We did H DS with 3 tanks last night (I solo tanked, the other 2 just sat there 'dpsing' and they both did the same if not more dps than they would've done in a dps spec.
Again, that's live, not MoP.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 11:09 PM ----------

You could also VERY safely 3-tank Will of the Emperor without even glancing at the enrage timer.
Not only are the tanks doing insane dps to their Bosses, but the 3rd tank will be doing a frockload of dps to the stunning add.
It really is gamebreaking in my eyes, not as gamebreaking as a class being able to exploit some sort of glitch and do 300k dps single target, but it's still gamebreaking to a degree, in my opinion. Nullifying enrage timers is really quite silly.

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 11:11 PM ----------

Do you really think enrage timers wouldn't be tuned to account for dps numbers they've seen coming in through the entirety of their beta testing phase?

From what i've seen, they've certainly not.
Even in the latest tests, talking to some of the people doing the 25Heroic testing (I'm 10man, hence me not testing them) and the enrage timers might as well just not exist.

Keep in mind, this is the 2nd or 3rd testing of the bosses in the specified difficulty. It's not like the bosses havn't been tested before.

[Sterilize]

That also responds to your 'ignore burn phases' part, with the Elegon adds (Sorry i'm being so picky on a single encounter, it's just easier XD). They pulsate at 20% dealing heavy raid damage. Not with me they dont.

I Forgot to mention, the only reason that this seems so so SO SO unintended to me, is that not every single tank class is doing this (Sorry I kind of hinted at that they ALL were above)

If it's that bad, I'll give it to ya. Made a point of not touching the beta outside of just fooling around with the new class mechanics before 5.0 hit as our guild wants to hit raid content with as little outside knowledge of the encounters as we can manage.
I'd seen several posts on the pally forums about crazy prot dps amongst the prot warrior ones the last few weeks so I figured they were all in a similar boat as well.
Did you just test the regular encounters or were the heroics available as well during the test phase?

Edit: Your post addition answered the last part =p

Haven't they always buffed encounters before they went live just so they could ensure fight mechanics were working properly in test phases?

[Raxxed]

If it's that bad, I'll give it to ya. Made a point of not touching the beta outside of just fooling around with the new class mechanics before 5.0 hit as our guild wants to hit raid content with as little outside knowledge of the encounters as we can manage. I'd seen several posts on the pally forums about crazy prot dps amongst the prot warrior ones the last few weeks so I figured they were all in a similar boat. Did you just test the regular encounters or were the heroics available as well?

Edit: Your post addition answered the last part =p

Every boss has been testable on normal, and every boss except Heroic Sha of Fear was testable on heroic.
I've tested the normals and only 2 bosses in Heroic (The times are 5am NZT or 3am Australian time, not too many people want to stay up that late.)

Most of them seem completely viable to bring a 3rd tank to, on 10man. Despite them not being needed, simply for the extra security, and the fact their dps will be just as high regardless.

The only reason prot pallies would be saying they have crazy dps would be in the post I made a few posts ago, with a bunch of situations on live that provide huge vengeance. Any BiS geared prot paladin with that much vengeance will do sickening dps, not as much as a DK or a warrior, but still it's absolutely huge.

edit: Can't believe I didn't put baleroc on that list.. I love doing 10mil executes and watching his health drop from 20% - dead.

You wouldn't see a prot pally saying 'WOAH MAN MY DPS IS HUGE' On beta, unless they were tanking about 30 mobs and consecrating on cooldown

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 11:30 PM ----------

Haven't they always buffed encounters before they went live just so they could ensure fight mechanics were working properly in test phases?

I've seen no health increases all through the beta testing phase(Or enrage timer adjusting), all i've seen is health decreases as well as buffs to mechanics damage, and nerfs to mechanics damage.

Usually if they were attempting to fine tune this before it goes live (Extremely soon) They would've been tinkering with health and enrage timers throughout the testing. I haven't encountered this, though. (Health increases/enrage timer adjustments) With one exception, Feng the Accursed on heroic 10man testing. His adds got a stealth buff mid testing. (Health)

[Deleted]

It does need tweaking but I would say put diminishing returns on the coefficient instead of capping it, having said that I wouldn't mind if they designed encounters around that as it would make the tank an even more pivotal role and would certainly cut the men from the boys. For example on a high DPS race, treading the line between taking high but manageable levels of damage smoothing the burst so you take high consistent damage to maximize your DPS while keeping the healers happy
As for your number of 75k DPS I would say that's fairly in line with the numbers I was pulling relative to the DPS in the raid pre 5.0.4 as in full Heroic blue gear your raid should be averaging out at around 100k DPS and 3/4 the DPS's damage was usually what I was maintaining on progress in FL and DS, so I wouldn't worry too much

However that would be a very sharp move away from traditional tactics in most bosses and I would expect to see vengeance tweaked after the first week of normal raiding

[shadowkras]

Tanks are always broken on pre-expansion patches. Just wait for the first patch after release before being concerned about anything being game-breaking.

[ati87]

Can somebody explain to me how this will be fixed when MoP hits.

Because reading the formula and the damage of a tank depens mostly on the damage tanken (ignoring certain stuff ofc).

The only way I see that the AP given by vengeance becomes lower is if the boss damage of MoP bosses would be relatively lower then DS bosses which kind of seem unlikely.

Of course if tanks did stupid amount of damage in beta we would know about it but what makes the difference then.

[Deleted]

Well I suppose its partly due to the fact that most tanks are now fairly overgeared for the content and most of the high numbers you hear are from well geared warriors with bits of DPS gear on for giggles
Any tank worth anything will be playing alot more defensively in MoP so you will see the relative numbers drop probably a little, however I still think tank DPS will be a little bit too high unless as I said, they add DR to the AP gain or Cap it which I'm personally not really in favor of as you can achieve nearly the same thing depending on how harsh you make the diminishing returns with a relatively simple polynomial formula

[Deleted]

They need to recap it.
It's extremely fun and all doing 75k single target dps and 600k aoe dps..
But it's also gamebreaking.
(That's from testing beta raids)

On live, as for the post 2 posts above me, a couple of situations:
-Chimeron. Did 129k dps last night on Heroic Chimeron.
-Madness. Take an impale, crit for 1mil executes and 700k dragon roar's
-Ultraxion. Hour of Twilight
-Spine. Stand in the explosion from the amalgamation
-Hagara. Stand in ice walls
-Sinestra. Twilight Extinction

It won't matter at 90. It'll be all tuned and fine then because bosses will have more armor and your gear will be shit.