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  1. #101
    Fire Elemental > Stormlash > Bloodlust > Lava Burst > Ascendance


  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    why didn't you factor in elemental blast overloads?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 07:33 PM ----------

    Something that is confusing me is the Elemental blast vs Earth Shock priority.

    According to the guide Elemental blast comes before Eath Shock (with 6/7 stacks) in the priority list.
    I've seen several comments both here and over at totemspot where posters state the opposite.

    Binkenstein his answer to a question in this thread:

    Q: "Shouldn't EB be on a higher place in the priority list than ES? I might be wrong of course."
    A: "No, it shouldn't."

    Quote from the guide:
    Priority Lists
    Single Target, Stationary

    Cast Lava Burst IF it is off cooldown AND Flame Shock is on the target
    IF you have the L90 talent Elemental Blast, cast Elemental Blast
    Cast Earth Shock IF Lightning Shield is at 6-7 charges.


    Which sounds to me that the guide prioritizes Blast over Earth Shock. Or am I missing something really obvious here?
    That would be because I had them mixed up. EB before ES is the correct priority, and I've updated the Totemspot copy to reflect that.

    The multi Flame Shock debate essentially comes down to the point that if you're doing AoE then CL > everything else (when talking about multitarget, of course), if you're cleaving then throwing out a FS onto a different target in the hope of getting more surge procs will be a) a main target DPS loss, as that's an action not directed at your target and b) less damage overall as CL > everything

  3. #103
    "Two to Four Targets

    Cleaving:
    Single target rotation & substitute Chain Lightning (either glyphed or unglyphed) in place of Lightning Bolt
    AoE
    Cast Chain Lightning (either glyphed or unglyphed) on the highest target."

    - At what number of targets should I switch to "AoE" rather than cleaving? 3? 4?
    - for "AoE", is fulmination really ignored entirely?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxie View Post
    "Two to Four Targets

    Cleaving:
    Single target rotation & substitute Chain Lightning (either glyphed or unglyphed) in place of Lightning Bolt
    AoE
    Cast Chain Lightning (either glyphed or unglyphed) on the highest target."

    - At what number of targets should I switch to "AoE" rather than cleaving? 3? 4?
    - for "AoE", is fulmination really ignored entirely?
    It depends on what you want to do. Do you want to AoE down a group of mobs, or cleave off a tough one to also kill some weaker mobs?

    If it's not specified in the rotation listed there then it's not included.

  5. #105
    Regarding the trinket list, im aware FRG is simming higher due to the Hit model in Simc atmo does that mean it would fall behind light of cosmos?

    Im stuck with the decision of FRG vs Light of the cosmos personally i think Light is far better most fights in MSV and the next two instances you can keep multiple FS's up and from what ive seen the uptime on it is actually pretty good. was just wondering your opinions on the situation.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoodini101 View Post
    Regarding the trinket list, im aware FRG is simming higher due to the Hit model in Simc atmo does that mean it would fall behind light of cosmos?

    Im stuck with the decision of FRG vs Light of the cosmos personally i think Light is far better most fights in MSV and the next two instances you can keep multiple FS's up and from what ive seen the uptime on it is actually pretty good. was just wondering your opinions on the situation.
    That listing was a preliminary one, and it's up to you to make the choice.

    I'm currently working on one that looks at procs only to eliminate that hit problem for FRG.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Fire Elemental > Stormlash > Bloodlust > Lava Burst > Ascendance
    Why would you cast Stormlash so early? Wouldn't it make sense to pop it between Lava Burst and Ascendance as it only has a 10 second duration? I would rather have all 10 seconds of Stormlash present while Ascendance is active. Maybe I am missing something though.

  8. #108
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wunhunglo View Post
    Why would you cast Stormlash so early? Wouldn't it make sense to pop it between Lava Burst and Ascendance as it only has a 10 second duration? I would rather have all 10 seconds of Stormlash present while Ascendance is active. Maybe I am missing something though.
    I'd pop Stormlash after Hero, personally, so you don't get a GCD's uptime where everyone doesn't have the Hero buff. Otherwise, Stormlash is more about optimizing raid DPS than optimizing personal DPS. If you're just looking at your personal performance, it's not really worth the GCD, so it shouldn't be a major factor when trying to optimize your own burst.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Stormlash is more about optimizing raid DPS than optimizing personal DPS.
    Of course. That reinforces my point. Granted I said after Lava Burst but that is after Heroism and before Ascendance. If I really wanted to go for max personal DPS I would pop Stormlash last so that it is active for my entire Ascendance.

    I think popping Stormlash right after Heroism (your idea) or after Lava Surge would be the way to go. The difference between those two options is minimal.

  10. #110
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wunhunglo View Post
    Of course. That reinforces my point. Granted I said after Lava Burst but that is after Heroism and before Ascendance. If I really wanted to go for max personal DPS I would pop Stormlash last so that it is active for my entire Ascendance.
    That's definitely a DPS loss. You're using an Ascendance GCD on Stormlash, which gains no benefit from Ascendance, rather than on a Lava Burst, which does benefit. If you want Stormlash up, pop it before Ascendance.

  11. #111
    Is Ascendance worth using on AOE packs for Lava Beam? How does Lava Beam differ from CL? I don't see it mentioned in the OP.

  12. #112
    Epic! Dave131's Avatar
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    So I recently downloaded Reforgelite. Used it once. It reforged a ton of my Mastery to Haste.

    That feels wrong. Aren't those two stats essentially on par with each other? Is it worth giving up Mastery for more Haste?

    Also, in the past, when Reforging to make Hit cap, I eventually run out of Crit to reforge into Spirit/Hit and have to use some Haste and/or Mastery but I can't decide which to give up. Thoughts?

    Here's my profile for anyone who might have time and wanna give some advice:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Rojimbo/simple

    (For the record, I am currently Hit capped for Heroics, not Raids. This is intentional)



    ---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 03:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bejii View Post
    Is Ascendance worth using on AOE packs for Lava Beam? How does Lava Beam differ from CL? I don't see it mentioned in the OP.
    One thing that's different about Lava Beam is you get Auto Crits on targets that are effected by Flame Shock, just like you would with Lava Burst.
    Last edited by Dave131; 2012-10-19 at 05:37 PM.
    “Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy." ~Frank Sinatra

  13. #113
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave131 View Post
    So I recently downloaded Reforgelite. Used it once. It reforged a ton of my Mastery to Haste.

    That feels wrong. Aren't those two stats essentially on par with each other? Is it worth giving up Mastery for more Haste?
    Not necessarily. It'll swing a fair bit as you gear up. My own stats have Haste almost 50% more valuable than Mastery, right now. It also depends on your talent picks; that's with Primal Elementalist, which favors Haste, as the elementals don't gain any benefit from my Mastery as Elemental.

  14. #114
    Epic! Dave131's Avatar
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    Ugh. I was hoping there'd be an easy answer lol.

    I guess I just need to learn how to use one of those Sims thingie-majiggers
    “Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy." ~Frank Sinatra

  15. #115
    hi,

    I'm currently playing both elem and resto on my shaman, and we're going to start gara'jal (10hc) pretty soon. There will be two other (good) healer with me, and I though that this would be one of the "best" fight to try a "Conductivity"-oriented healing spec (otherwise I'll just respec to resto). I read somewhere (I though it was on totemspot, but I couldn't find it again) that a "raid-healing-oriented" elem spec could be possible (ie, do not use use flame shock/lava burst, and focus on maximizing hps), but it was preety long ago. I just wanted to know if anyone actually tried it on live server, if it actually makes a decent amount of heal (I vaguelly remember napkin-math saying around 30-40k hps, but not sure...), and if some theorycrafting have already been done (it would seem like these talent would be best : http://www.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#KIuKI9Avhd (cl-glyph if I have to switch realm as a dps in the other realm), rotation would be healing rain > healing totem > EB > ES7 > lighning bolt, and mastery would probably give the least healing increase (not sure about weather to focus haste or crit, especially given that I won't be able to catch the 7,613 hast breakpoint on healing rain with AS+5%haste buff)

    I'm not entirely sure if it's really worth trying it, so any thought would be apreciated

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not necessarily. It'll swing a fair bit as you gear up. My own stats have Haste almost 50% more valuable than Mastery, right now. It also depends on your talent picks; that's with Primal Elementalist, which favors Haste, as the elementals don't gain any benefit from my Mastery as Elemental.

    That's where my question would fit...
    I had skilled Elemental Blast, and reforging ALL in the direction of Mastery was quite more valuable than haste.

    So can one be put it like this?

    Elemental Blast: Mastery > Haste

    Primal Elementarist: Haste > Mastery?


    Edit: Just tested it.... my Damage seems to be better with totally preferring mastery instead of haste.
    Simulationcraft tells me i should be doing 55k DPS with preferring haste... i do around 40k...
    Preferring mastery Simulationcraft tells me i should do 45k dps and i do 46k dps...
    (first boss Mogu'shan Vaults)

    and the dummies i do up to 80k dps with primal elementarist and preferring mastery
    and 98k dps with preferring haste (both with heroism and elemental mastery stacking)

    any idea why my experience differs this strong?

    if you want to look up my char: Dracorina - EU-Kargath

    I, and my whole raid, don't understand it, what is really depressing
    Last edited by Dracornis; 2012-10-19 at 10:29 AM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracornis View Post
    That's where my question would fit...
    I had skilled Elemental Blast, and reforging ALL in the direction of Mastery was quite more valuable than haste.

    So can one be put it like this?

    Elemental Blast: Mastery > Haste

    Primal Elementarist: Haste > Mastery?


    Edit: Just tested it.... my Damage seems to be better with totally preferring mastery instead of haste.
    Simulationcraft tells me i should be doing 55k DPS with preferring haste... i do around 40k...
    Preferring mastery Simulationcraft tells me i should do 45k dps and i do 46k dps...
    (first boss Mogu'shan Vaults)

    and the dummies i do up to 80k dps with primal elementarist and preferring mastery
    and 98k dps with preferring haste (both with heroism and elemental mastery stacking)

    any idea why my experience differs this strong?

    if you want to look up my char: Dracorina - EU-Kargath

    I, and my whole raid, don't understand it, what is really depressing
    Simcraft sims standing still nuking a target dummy. It doesn't relate to real damage in a boss fight with as much movement and cleave as Stone Guard. Also, stat weights will change based on more than just your talents. For example I use Elemental Blast and simmed as Haste > Mastery for me last time I checked (armoury is not updating at the moment, haven't simmed my char in a few days, gotten a couple of upgrades since). It depends on your talents, how much Haste/Mastery/Crit you already have, how much Int you already have, what Glyphs your using ect.

    Doing one off tests of set ups on a dummy, or a raid boss, won't tell you much. That is far too RNG prone. Primal Elementalist will put more emphasis on Haste because it gets no benefit from Mastery, but Elemental Blast benefits from both, and even with PE if you have very low Mastery and/or certain levels of Haste around break points you will see that Mastery might still overtake Haste. Sometimes its even better to balance them.

    Your gear is reforged best when simcraft says the difference between more Haste and Mastery (and crit, crit can't be ignored as junk anymore) are as cloe together in value as possible. If Simcraft says Haste is worth 50% more than Mastery you should be reforging for Haste, if Simcraft says Mastery and Haste are worth the same, then you should not touch your gear - even if your already fully reforged too Haste or too Mastery. This is because those stat weights talk about how much DPS each EXTRA point of that stat would be worth, not how much each point of a stat your gear gives now.

    For example, if you have 1k Haste and 1k Mastery Sim might say Haste is worth more than Mastery, so you reforge to haste and have 1.4k Haste and 600 Mastery. Now Simcraft might say Mastery is better than Haste, so you reforge part of it back, and now have 1.2k Haste and 800 Mastery. Now Simcraft might say they are worth the same. When they are classed as worth the same (or as close too the same as you can get with your gear) that is when you have reforged to the most optimal set up. That might well be just completely going all out to Haste or all out to Mastery (especially at these lower gear levels where you don't have much stats to reforge) but it could well be a balancing act too.

    For people that god bored of reading that, there is no set 'Haste > Mastery > Crit' or anything like that for any talent set up or gear set up. Even changing your reforges could change the order. Sim your character before and after you reforge if you want to be as optimal as possible to make sure your reforging is perfect.

    Another top tip is to realise what SimCraft is actually showing you. Its showing you DPS in a stand still single target fight. Movement might benefit Haste more due to having a higher reliance on Lightning Bolt and getting more Lava Surge procs to replace those hard cast Lava Bursts you can't do. Cleave might benefit Mastery because CL benefits more from Mastery than Haste. Damage buffs like on Spiritbinder might benefit Mastery more because of the large amounts of Haste you recieve from that fight and the cleaving of the adds. In general SimCraft is a good way to go, but if you want to be 100% optimal realising what SimCraft is and knowing how to use it will improve your performance in the real situations.


  18. #118
    That's Quite interesting to know.

    But you can Change the movement of the Simulation in the New Beta of simulationcraft.

    But a New Question comes to my mind.

    Where in my Simulation do i See how close Mastery And haste are Together?

  19. #119
    Stood in the Fire Gum's Avatar
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    Quick question, I was wondering exactly how Crit works with LvB - Seeing as i havent read anywhere that it actually scales like Chaos bolt does, im going to assume it doesnt - Aka more crit = More damage, for LvB - This leaves me with a bit of an issue opening wise, My initial idea goes:

    Fire elemental - Hero - Stormlash - EB - FS - LvB - If"haste" or "mastery" proceed with Accendance, If "crit", assume normal ST rotation. But im really unsure - Ive given reading a try, but it really isnt easy finding the perfect opening, so im going to go with asking

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracornis View Post
    That's Quite interesting to know.

    But you can Change the movement of the Simulation in the New Beta of simulationcraft.

    But a New Question comes to my mind.

    Where in my Simulation do i See how close Mastery And haste are Together?
    You can tell from the stat weights it gives you when you sim your character. If they are similiar then the stats are close together (all the stat weights are is how much DPS 1 more point of that stat will give you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gum View Post
    Quick question, I was wondering exactly how Crit works with LvB - Seeing as i havent read anywhere that it actually scales like Chaos bolt does, im going to assume it doesnt - Aka more crit = More damage, for LvB - This leaves me with a bit of an issue opening wise, My initial idea goes:

    Fire elemental - Hero - Stormlash - EB - FS - LvB - If"haste" or "mastery" proceed with Accendance, If "crit", assume normal ST rotation. But im really unsure - Ive given reading a try, but it really isnt easy finding the perfect opening, so im going to go with asking
    You should pre-cast Elemental Blast before the fight starts as its free damage. Only don't do this if for some reason your tank can't keep aggro. Don't cast EB if its not as a pre-cast because it does less damage than Lava Burst and you as such you want to get to Lava Burst as quickly as possible. Obviously to do so you need to put Flame Shock up. So assuming no pre-cast your opening should be Fire Elemental > Hero > Stormlash > Flame Shock > Lava Burst > Ascendance. If you do pre-cast EB even if you get the crit proc the fact you have all your trinkets up and a pre-Pot and Hero up mean your still better off going straight into Ascendance and just getting no benefit from the buff. It sucks if you get a crit proc on the pull, but just gotta move on.

    Best proc on the pull - especially if your using BL, EM or 4pt13 bonus - is Mastery proc. On Spiritbinder progression this week even without a Skull Banner in the group if I open Pre-pot > Precast Elemental Blast > Fire Elemental (Mage pops Time Warp at this point, Resto Shaman pops Stormlash - I use my Stormlash after 1st group comes out the Spirit Realm) > Flame Shock > Racial + Synapse Springs (both my trinkets are procs) > Lava Burst > Ascendance I will easily top 200k DPS as long as my Jade Spirit and Trinkets all proc within a reasonable time (Jade Spirit proc chance is bloody horrible, have had times where it didn't proc until Ascendance ended -.-), sometimes pushing 220k. With Warrior in the raid I can pretty often break 250k DPS burst, staying well over 100-110k DPS until the first Totem spawns (I go in for that one, get Lay on Hands for instant 21 stacks then leave instantly - Boomkin clears the adds alone) where I then stay over 100k DPS for the next 30 seconds. We wipe near enrage timer with me still at roughly 86-87k DPS.


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