Corporal Punishment in Schools

[fwc577]

So, I was quite appauled to log onto Yahoo today and see the top story.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html

Basically, the child, a 13-year old straight-A student, got in trouble for letting another student copy some of her work (allegedly). She recieved 2-days of in-school suspension and because she didn't want to affect her grades she chose to go to the principal's office and request a paddling because corporal punishment is allowed in schools. (It's allowed in only a handful of states, federal law left it up to local law makers to decide).

The school called her mother who said it was alright as long as her daughter okayed it.

Then, the full-grown male vice-principal got out the paddle and delivered the corporal punishment to a 95-pound 13-year old female student. The result is described as what looks like bruises and blisters.

http://www.mintpress.net/corporal-pu...shock-therapy/

This is another case of gross negligence by another school system and another state which still allows the use of corporal punishment. In this case, a video from 2002 surfaced of a disabled student being subject to electro-shock therapy as the form of corporal punishment and he had to be hospitalized after having it done to him 7 times in a single day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/ed.../30paddle.html

Here is another case from Texas. In this case the student skipped detention and corporal punishment was the next step for his skipping detention. After three swats he had to be hospitalized for deep bruises.

http://www.katc.com/news/sunset-8th-...r-being-tardy/

Here is yet another case in Lousiana of three girls who were using the bathroom and tardy and on their way to class (one of the closer female bathrooms was closed so they had to go to a different one). They were stopped in the hall by a teacher who chose to paddle them and give each girl 1 swat. They were stopped in an area of the school known as the "quad" which is in full view of many campus classrooms so this was seen by all their peers. To make things worse, the parents of these students had signed a document saying they didn't allow their children to be paddled in school. All three students were also straight-A students without prior histories of discipline problems at schools.



I highly encourage anyone who plans to respond to this topic to google the results of what some of these paddlings look like. The bruising looks absolutely atrocious in many cases and it isn't just an issue of a sore red bum for an hour or two. It is a case of deep nasty bruises and welts that cover the entire butt.

Talking Points:

• In all 50 states it is illegal to hit a prisoner, someone in the military, or an animal yet in 19 states it is legal to hit a student (Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Lousiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming.
• 2006 was the latest combined data report I could dig up from the US Dept of Education Office of Civil Rights. In 2006, 220,517 total students recieved some form of corporal punishment and of those students, 20,000 needed to be hospitalized for injuries suffered during punishment (9%, almost 1 in 10 children who recieved corporal punishment need to be sent to the hospital afterwards)
• Students can recieve corporal punishment for a multitude of incidents. Being late to class, acting out, going to the bathroom without permission, or even failing a test.
• Most people in the US don't realize many states still allow a student to be paddled.
• Students who are paddled have a higher likelihood of dropping out of class.
• All US citizens and even non-citizens who are charged with a crime in the US have the right to due process yet students in the 19 states where paddling is legal are denied this fundamental right.
• Going with the above point further, students where paddling is administered have no right to appeal the punishment, they have no right to raise concerns over the legitimacy of the claims made against them, and they have no right to raise concerns of the severity of the punishment being administered.
• Paddling in schools is often left vague and open to interpretation of the person administering the paddling. This leaves open the door to issues involving abuse (seeking something wrong with a specific child to repeatedly administer corporal punishment), social (how public the paddling is), and racial inequalities (what happens when a a racist employee is allowed to paddle a student of a race he doesn't like, no matter the color?).
• Students and their families often lack the independent and financial resources, support systems, processes, and reasonable formats in order to voice their concern over these issues.
• The US and 1 state in Australia are the only industrialized nations in the world that allow students to legally recieve corporal punishment in school. Even Iran doesn't allow its students to be hit in school.
• 3 of 10 lowest ranking states in terms of educational excellence are among the 19 that allow paddling.
• 8 of the top 10 rankings states in terms of educational excellence have banned paddling in schools.
• In 1994 America passed a law making it illegal to torture terrorists. Even if they want to fly a plane into a building or matyr themselves with a bomb strapped to their chests.
• A clot has the potential to form from the use of a paddle which can be life threatening. In the US there have been 7 deaths that resulted from corporal punishment in schools.

[Reeve]

Honestly, I think I'm OK with corporal punishment, so long as it's not chronic and it doesn't cause lasting physiological harm. I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but I think that corporal punishment is a pretty powerful motivator to respect authority and follow the rules. Of course it needs to be something approved by the parents.

Now if the same student is returning for paddlings over and over, it obviously isn't working and something else needs to be worked out.

[Wilian]

Corporal punishments didn't make me a walking monster. In fact when looking at my brother and sister who never got any I'd say it affected me positively compared of how they shaped to be.

I got spanked once or twice in my childhood and usually after a huge big no no or repedeatly doing wrong. It sort of clarified the situation about no no's.

[Seegtease]

I'm a supporter of corporal punishment, but not by somebody else. I don't trust other people to know when they've gone too far, so I'm opposed to its use in schools. Children are all very different and require different levels of punishment - only a parent could really know the child well enough to know which kind of punishment is best for them.

[Sunseeker]

The problem: Children don't have rights.

[Wilian]

The problem: Children don't have rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_rights

[Zogarth]

Here in Denmark there is no corporal punishment at all. If a teacher as much as slaps a student, that teacher will get fired and will most likely never find a teaching job ever again. For me corporal punishment seems like it should be illegal, as it is basicly assault on another person. To be frank, if one of my teachers ever tried to hit me, i would fight back in self-defense.

[Frozenbeef]

Nothing says good parent more than allowing strangers to beat your children :S

[Wilian]

To clarify my earliel post, I don't mind corporal punishments but sure as hell I don't accept that anyone beyond the immediate family would be on at it.

[DarkSoul]

I'm a supporter of corporal punishment, but not by somebody else. I don't trust other people to know when they've gone too far, so I'm opposed to its use in schools. Children are all very different and require different levels of punishment - only a parent could really know the child well enough to know which kind of punishment is best for them.

In principle, I agree with you. However, many of this generation's parents seem to hold some sort of grudge for receiving corporal punishment, and therefore don't discipline their children the way they need to be in my opinion. I see the way so many children and teens act today and wonder if they'd still be the way they are if they'd been punished a little more substantially when they did something wrong.

[Kasierith]

The problem: Children don't have rights.

No... children don't have autonomy. There's a difference.

You have to remember that severe beating are overall not the norm; if they were, than they wouldn't be so shocking now would they? For the majority of individuals, physical reinforcement is a valuable tool for refuting bad behavior. What would you rather do.... paddle your child, or bury them after they ran out into traffic again because a stern talking to didn't sink in?

Also, 7 deaths in the US, without specifying a date, is actually pretty good when you think about it... not good that it happens, but I would have expected that number to be drastically higher given the huge wall of text above.

[darkwarrior42]

and because she didn't want to affect her grades she chose to go to the principal's office and request a paddling because corporal punishment is allowed in schools.

The school called her mother who said it was alright as long as her daughter okayed it.

First off, I have to ask: What makes you think you are a better judge of what is and is not acceptable for this person (that I assume you do not know) that you know better what should and should not be done to/for her than she herself, along with her parent?

Second, I'd like to see the sources and some more details on your "talking points"... because they don't look at all like points of discussion, but arguments you have put forth in favor of your position in the hopes that people will accept them without question and argue on your terms (in which case, you've already won).
--In particular, the point about it being illegal to torture terrorists is completely irrelevant. First, the comparison to past terrorist attacks has no bearing on these incidents or laws, and is a clear and shameless ploy to play on emotion. Second, you make the unspoken assertion that the paddling laws in their current form are equivalent to torture; while that's not necessarily wrong, it's something you'd need to prove (and not just in cases where it goes beyond the intent of the law), rather than something you can assume that everyone here agrees on.
--Also, the number of states/countries that participate is completely irrelevant. The reasons that so few participate may be relevant, but since you didn't actually bother to make any arguments on that point, the conclusion is of no use here.

You could just as easily have said "a high school teacher, at her own request and with the permission of her mother, was administered corporal punishment in lieu of suspension." Instead, you specifically focused on her age and weight, specifically pointed out that the one administering said punishment was male and and adult... all factors that are true, but irrelevant, and serve only to make the situation feel emotionally worse. And honestly, that sort of emotional manipulation makes me far less inclined to trust your statements as being factual. (Ironic since the vice principle's gender is actually relevant, but not because it's a big bad man beating up on a helpless girl, as you'd like everyone to feel... it's relevant because the policy in question requires that females administer punishments to females, and the vice principle did in fact violate that policy.)



The worst part is that I do actually agree with the position that corporal punishment shouldn't be administered in schools, even if I have no issue with it in the home (in general, and as long as no damage is inflicted... keeping in mind that pain and damage aren't the same thing). The ones administering the punishment are not medical professionals, and I'd be very surprised if they had been trained in what would cause lasting damage and what would not. They also don't have as much of a personal connection to the children as parents, so they're more likely (again, generality, there are many exceptions) to inflict greater harm. Beyond that, they have no idea of what kind of home environment the children have, so they have no idea what negative associations the child may already have with corporal punishment, or what lingering effect it might have. That's ignoring the possibility of administrators simply using it as a way to inflict pain on children they don't like, or the fact that it won't have the desired effects in all students.

Still doesn't change how incredibly biased your post is, though. It's not just your post that inspires this reaction in me; anytime I see that sort of emotional manipulation at work, my first instinct is always "if you're resorting to emotional attacks straight off, you must not have much of substance to offer."

It's also not just you, even in this case; the article on yahoo is titled "Mom angry that male vice principle spanked child.", which has many implications... none of which are the reality, that "The child asked to be spanked instead of being suspended, the vice principle checked with her mother, the mother said yes as long as the child was ok with it, and the reason the mother is upset is that the vice principle violated the police that requires males to administer such punishments to males and females to administer it to females."

[Deleted]

I just don't see the point of it, there's no statistical or research data to suggest that corporal punishment is in any way shape or form more beneficial than other types of disciplinary action.

[Whidbey]

When I was a kid it kept a lot of us in line. Our parents had to sign permission, and the principle could only swat you through clothes with the school nurse or counselor present. Swats were only on the globe of the butt, with a lightweight paddle. I got one once and only once for telling my 4th grade teacher to shove his math homework up his butt. I never mouthed off to a teacher again. There is corporal punishment and then there is torture and abuse. I am all for corporal punishment as it never hurt my generation to know who was in charge. you are in school to learn and one of life's lessons is respect your teachers and elders. Corporal punishment has nothing to do with the stats on educational excellence, that's due to abandonment of public schools by the federal govt, asking parents to pay for everything and cutting teachers, schools and salaries. I love when people like to twist statistics that have no bearing on the issue into a basis for arguing their point.

[Deleted]

yeh lets show our kids that punishing someone with physical abuse is a good way to teach a lesson.

skip forward 20 years, whats stopping that kid punishing someone in a like manner?

[Neazy]

I don't think schools should be acting as parents. If you want to spank your kids, ok. But a principal doing it to a kid for letting someone cheat off of her? That doesn't fit the "crime". Fail her on that assignment, and punish the other student too.

[Deleted]

I read the first article and for some reason this disgusted me immensely. Apparently the mom had agreed to corporal discipline in the school but:

"What neither Jorgenson nor Santos knew was that a man - the vice principal - would be doing the swatting, while a female watched. As far as Jorgensen knew, she said, school policy mandated that males spanked males and females spanked females.

and

"I think Taylor is proof that we need to keep that policy," she said. "I don't believe a man intentionally meant to do that to her, but it still happens, because men are too big and strong to be hitting 96-pound girls."

So she thinks it's okay to hit kids like this as long as it is not girls. Small boys can take it just fine.

[Austilias]

Honestly that sounds pretty mild. For stealing a £5 magazine from the store when I was younger, my mom grabbed a fistful of my hair and knocked my head against the living room wall several times before giving me a damn good beating and grounding me for 2 months. That was the last time I ever stole anything. Strangely and, I think, not by coincidence, I am one of the few where I live who is not an alcoholic, loiterer or someone with a criminal record, nor have I ever been.

So long as it is measured and used responsibly, I believe corporal punishment can be just as good, if not better, than other means, and I think even when it was exacted upon me in a manner that was way over the top, I am a better person for it. Of course, this being MMO-Champion there are plenty of Ulf Karlsonn's and all that it entails, so i'll be on me way as I know just how the thread will go; indeed, i've seen one similar to this before in fact.

[Orlong]

The problem: Children don't have rights.

Nor should they, they arent intellectually advanced enough to understand the consequences of their actions, but paddling teaches them the consequences. Also I think paddling should be used in EVERY school. When I was in school they used it and kids acted like they are supposed to after just ONE paddling most of the time. Having to go sit in the hall for 20 minutes isnt scary so they are likely to act up and be bad knowing nothing will happen. If they know they will go home with a sore butt, they will be less likely to act up and be bad. Fear works!!!

[s_bushido]

I don't think schools should be acting as parents. If you want to spank your kids, ok. But a principal doing it to a kid for letting someone cheat off of her? That doesn't fit the "crime". Fail her on that assignment, and punish the other student too.

The girl's mother OK'd the punishment...so...parents can't act as parents either? The problem was that it was a male administering it to a female, instead of same-gender as the policy instructs.