Arcane Mage PvE Guide

[Deleted]

... People are playing Fire? o_O;

Also, people are actually playing Fire??? o.o;

Why all the fire hate? It's still very enjoyable and I'm pushing close to 400k dps on Fallen Protectors/Dark Shamans and similar fights (10man normal) with gear lower than 555 with over 20% of the total damage done. I'd like to see a frost mage coming even close.

[Deleted]

Source on this? I really don't see why this would change

Haste was previously also benefiting RPPM trinkets perhaps, now it is not.

[Deleted]

... People are playing Fire? o_O;

Also, people are actually playing Fire??? o.o;

Of the 10 best geared Mages in the EU/US (and at this point in progression, you can infer guild rank from that), only 2 of them are gemmed for Arcane.

[Deleted]

Any one know if it is possible to coin http://www.wowdb.com/items/104479-gaze-of-arrogance from sha of pride? it's not listed under mage specs. But would be a nice early progress weapon since wand/oh are from 10th/14th boss.

Edit: and same for the ring of thok.

[Ziem]

From September 17 hotfixes:

Mages and Warlocks now have a chance to obtain Gaze of Arrogance (Sha of Pride) and Lever of the Megantholithic Apparatus (Siegecrafter Blackfuse) through bonus rolls on Normal difficulty.

(Source).

I haven't heard anything about Thok, but presumably it isn't a problem or they'd have hotfixed it.

[Firebert]

I already answered this question. Go full mastery.

Never use frost armor this tier either for arcane.

Have to disagree with you there. See my post here.

TL,DR: If your base Haste > 6.28% with no Armor on, take Frost Armor (which it will be for the whole tier).

[Kendeura]

Any one know if it is possible to coin http://www.wowdb.com/items/104479-gaze-of-arrogance from sha of pride? it's not listed under mage specs. But would be a nice early progress weapon since wand/oh are from 10th/14th boss.

Edit: and same for the ring of thok.

Guildie coined HC WF Staff from Pride. Couldn't tell you about Ring from Thok though.

[Zavri]

Every fight this tier favors mage armor and full mastery outside of 2 fights.

Those 2 fights? Iron Juggernaut ( Easy farm boss ) and Malkorok.

Every other fight completely favors mage armor.

It would be different if we had more single target fights.

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Any one know if it is possible to coin http://www.wowdb.com/items/104479-gaze-of-arrogance from sha of pride? it's not listed under mage specs. But would be a nice early progress weapon since wand/oh are from 10th/14th boss.

Edit: and same for the ring of thok.

Yeah you can coin the staff, it's how I got mine :P

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That is the opposite of what most top arcane mages seem to be doing fyi.

Old habits die hard. And the dps difference between the two is really small on a patchwerk fight. It also depends on your playstyle.

It's really hard to argue for frost armor when toxic totem also benefits from stronger spell hits vs # of casts.

Harder hitting spells = more damage from toxic totem procs. And things that need to die quick die faster with more mastery :P

[Deleted]

Every fight this tier favors mage armor and full mastery outside of 2 fights.

Those 2 fights? Iron Juggernaut ( Easy farm boss ) and Malkorok.

Every other fight completely favors mage armor.

It would be different if we had more single target fights.

Norushen, Nazgrim (unless you tank adds right next to boss), Thok, Siegecrafter, Paragons (because NT is pure pad), Garrosh as well as the two you mentioned.

Just because you will gain more irrelevant DPS (aka: Padding) by going Mage Armor doesn't mean it's actually better.

Old habits die hard. And the dps difference between the two is really small on a patchwerk fight. It also depends on your playstyle.

It's really hard to argue for frost armor when toxic totem also benefits from stronger spell hits vs # of casts.

Harder hitting spells = more damage from toxic totem procs. And things that need to die quick die faster with more mastery :P

No, it's not "old habits die hard", it's more simple than that: top mages care more about progression than their own ePeen. The DPS difference isn't "really small" either, it's pretty sizeable.
Where's your maths to support your theory with Toxic Totem? It's doing ~5% of your DPS as multistrike, by gaining ~10% Mastery through going Mage Armor you'll increase spell damage by ~5% or so (depending on current Mastery levels), but for something doing such a minor portion of your DPS you'll gain maybe 1-1.5% total damage, if that. Also, why is it that it'll benefit from stronger spell hits more than number of casts? More casts = more chances to proc, therefore you'll likely get more procs to make up for the fact they're hitting for a little less.

[mikeysauce]

Every fight this tier favors mage armor and full mastery outside of 2 fights.

Those 2 fights? Iron Juggernaut ( Easy farm boss ) and Malkorok.

Every other fight completely favors mage armor.

It would be different if we had more single target fights.

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Yeah you can coin the staff, it's how I got mine :P

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Old habits die hard. And the dps difference between the two is really small on a patchwerk fight. It also depends on your playstyle.

It's really hard to argue for frost armor when toxic totem also benefits from stronger spell hits vs # of casts.

Harder hitting spells = more damage from toxic totem procs. And things that need to die quick die faster with more mastery :P

you're wrong and spreading misinformation, seems to be a common theme for these forums.

[Zavri]

Lets say add A needs to die in 10 seconds.

With frost armor you gain 1 extra AB.

With mage armor you gain 10% mastery.

What is going to do more damage? Mastery.


Edit: and it isn't just 10% mastery either, its more then that because in most cases you WILL have to reforge for the haste bp for LB if you go frost armor, which is even more of a mastery loss.

[Zatetic]

Lets say add A needs to die in 10 seconds.

With frost armor you gain 1 extra AB.

With mage armor you gain 10% mastery.

What is going to do more damage? Mastery.


Edit: and it isn't just 10% mastery either, its more then that because in most cases you WILL have to reforge for the haste bp for LB if you go frost armor, which is even more of a mastery loss.

Lets say AB hits for 500k
10% of 500k is 50k

so which is more effective damage on that target?

an extra 50k damage on your ab or another ab that hits for 450k.

[Deleted]

Lets say add A needs to die in 10 seconds.

With frost armor you gain 1 extra AB.

With mage armor you gain 10% mastery.

What is going to do more damage? Mastery.


Edit: and it isn't just 10% mastery either, its more then that because in most cases you WILL have to reforge for the haste bp for LB if you go frost armor, which is even more of a mastery loss.

Stop pls. Gooby pls.

[Makarena]

I go with frost armor on: sha, norushen, jugger, shamans, nazgrim, malkorok, thok, siege, klaxxi and garrosh. 10/14 fights. Dat LB dmg topping the dmg charts gg

[Kenbud]

Just wanted to drop this by, Arcane burst is insane. Bursted 2 million on H Galakras with no lust and 1.65 on H Jugg with lust, also had a 2.05 million barrage on Jugg. Nothing really more was just pretty pumped to see those kind of numbers

[Vynestra]

So I am i549 atm. And I went frost and compared the logs to last weeks arcane run -- I got 2 VERY small upgrades this week. (and 3 tier pieces im not using) and other than kor'kron dark shamans frost had arcane beat. Galakras I could probably do better as arcane. And protectors possibly as well. But the rest of the fights I was typically a good 20k dps ahead...Is it just frost is good at this ilvl compared to arcane?

I am thinking of staying frost for a while until arcane really shows to pull ahead.

[Deleted]

Lets say AB hits for 500k
10% of 500k is 50k

so which is more effective damage on that target?

an extra 50k damage on your ab or another ab that hits for 450k.

Feel free to ignore logic if it supports your argument...

You have failed to take into account its 1 extra AB every 90 seconds single target (roughly, see above). So you need to factor in 90 seconds worth of lost mastery, so feel free to come back when you have confirmed that 90 seconds worth of 3000 (and probably more due to reforge) mastery is less than (in your example) 450k. Also to complicate matters you also have to add back on the gained DPS from frost armor during that same period. The problem is nobody has actually worked this out yet hence the argument, I am happy to be proven either way by sound maths. I'm not even going to go into the amount of flaws in taking the AMR values and assigning a static figure to them as the link above suggests.

I go with frost armor on: sha, norushen, jugger, shamans, nazgrim, malkorok, thok, siege, klaxxi and garrosh. 10/14 fights. Dat LB dmg topping the dmg charts gg

Also, once again people, reaching the cap does NOT (REPEAT NOT) increase the DPS of Living Bomb!! It increase the DPET, thus gaining GCD's. You just need to refresh it more (around 4 times more in a 6 minute fight (single target).


The target becomes a Living Bomb, taking 4288 (+ 321.44% of Spell power) Fire damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or the target dies, it explodes to deal an additional [0.1 * 4288 ( + 321.44% of Spell power)

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So I am i549 atm. And I went frost and compared the logs to last weeks arcane run -- I got 2 VERY small upgrades this week. (and 3 tier pieces im not using) and other than kor'kron dark shamans frost had arcane beat. Galakras I could probably do better as arcane. And protectors possibly as well. But the rest of the fights I was typically a good 20k dps ahead...Is it just frost is good at this ilvl compared to arcane?

I am thinking of staying frost for a while until arcane really shows to pull ahead.

Need to see your gear really to answer this, what set bonus' do you have available? (which tier, assume T16) Arcane "should" outperform frost assuming both have optimal gear, if you have no set bonus' equipped for either tier or high haste and low mastery then yes you will be doing more dps as frost as the set bonus matters least for frost. Unless you pick a route and stick to it though you will end up with non optimal stats for both specs.

[Sakku]

Even if its not a lot, dont forget that mage armor gives you more than 3k mastery with immerseus trinket.

So, could we have a good answer for ST fight?
Every spells (including bombe ticks) hitting harder with no additionnal tick
Vs
Spells cast faster and 1 additionnal tick on LB
?

And for INT proc or AP, if you cannot afford to add at least 1 AB during proc, mastery gives more damage (during trinket prox and AP)

[Deleted]

I am running full Mastery, NT on non-pad cleave fights and LB on others. Others will argue the haste breakpoint is important (they might be right, as I said, I'd love someone to prove it), I've yet to see this proven though, until I do I'm sticking with it.

Things to consider.

You gain no DPS directly from the breakpoint, you gain only GCD's. In a 6 minute single target living bomb encounter you will only be gaining around 4 GCD's by using frost armour (and reforging to 9762), do those 4 seconds extra DPS make up for loosing minimum 3000 mastery? (obviously some dps is gained back from the haste itself).

Trinkets no-longer double dip in haste, obviously if you cast more spells you get more procs, but this is outweighed by (for example toxic totem) will be hitting harder when it does hit. There is no big net gain with haste from trinkets now (pre 5.4 there was obviously). It may even be a DPS loss purely from that trinkets perspective. Don't see many people mentioning this but it IS relevant.

Reforging out of mastery is not optimal for almost every spell we cast, how much mastery are you willing to drop on your gear (in addition to the armour)? 1000? 2000!? Every point of mastery you drop into haste is a net dps loss for every arcane spell you cast on every add on every boss on every encounter (unless you reforge per encounter and 99% do not do this). You can't argue with that, it's fact. Otherwise we would all be stacking haste and we aren't.

The more haste you have the faster you cast, the faster you cast the more mana you use, the more mana you use the less the mastery you actually have will benefit due to the way mana adept works. I notice most hybrids choose to ignore this fact as well.

Snapshotting - If you are refreshing bombs early (and you should be in some cases) then you aren't even getting the extra duration on the bomb anyway.

On the flip side

That extra haste can sometimes allow a cast to finish when it would otherwise have not been possible.

It feels a bit smoother with higher haste levels, but that really does not matter to me

Extra haste would be handy on Dino silences.

Saving GCD's is obviously a good thing, it allows us to cast other spells.

On situations where you will dot an add once it will be a DPS gain.

[Mizzet]

do those 4 seconds extra DPS make up for loosing minimum 3000 mastery? (obviously some dps is gained back from the haste itself).

This is what I'd like to see people address more, you cannot simply state you lose X benefit from mastery and not address the benefit you gain from reforging that mastery into haste. It's not like the stat disappears into a black hole never to be seen again.

Trinkets no-longer double dip in haste, obviously if you cast more spells you get more procs, but this is outweighed by (for example toxic totem) will be hitting harder when it does hit.

Reforging out of mastery is not optimal for almost every spell we cast, how much mastery are you willing to drop on your gear (in addition to the armour)? 1000? 2000!? Every point of mastery you drop into haste is a net dps loss for every arcane spell you cast on every add on every boss on every encounter (unless you reforge per encounter and 99% do not do this). You can't argue with that, it's fact. Otherwise we would all be stacking haste and we aren't.

See above, what about haste? You don't get nothing for reforging that mastery away, does haste not affect every spell you cast? As was mentioned the previous page, your Toxic Totem will be proccing for a lower amount but proccing for more instances due to your casting more spells, now what?

The more haste you have the faster you cast, the faster you cast the more mana you use, the more mana you use the less the mastery you actually have will benefit due to the way mana adept works. I notice most hybrids choose to ignore this fact as well.

Wasn't the whole point of the Nether Attunement passive meant to address this historical problem with haste?

Snapshotting - If you are refreshing bombs early (and you should be in some cases) then you aren't even getting the extra duration on the bomb anyway.

Fair enough, this one makes sense.