1. #661
    So, with a theoretical haste value above 10k the intention would be to use FFB in place of Scorch weaving under the 5.1 mechanics? Given the reduced mana regen of Tier 6 though AM procs decide whether / how long you can sustain. 4 stack of Arcane Charge?

    Are you:
    - running FFB spam to proc missiles and hoping stacks don't drop, or
    - weaving AB and FFB to ensure stacks don't drop?
    - using FFB as a filler to grab an extra chance or two at missiles but clearing stacks with Brg otherwise?

    I know there will be a mathed out answer, but what makes FFB perform at all at 10k haste? Is it simply the same as with 6 stack camping (AMs and ABs being fully buffed)?

  2. #662
    I've already mathed it out, haste won't really change much (since it effects the entire cycle as well as mana regen) and so I'm not sure what Sektorx was getting at with his comments. Maybe he was going for what 'felt' right, who knows?


    FFB 'camping' will not work, at least that is if you are using it similar to how people used scorch 'camping'. I have, however, mathed out a scenario where you could use FFB within a cycle (but it needs to be glyphed) and even that scenario is a probabilistic gain only (i.e. it will not produce a DPS gain every time).
    I could chart out the complete math here, but that would take time plus I would have to explain a lot of what is going on. Maybe I will do it another time.

    On a personal note, I have been trying many different strategies to get FFB into Arcane. If it can be brought into the spec with a valid gameplay purpose I think it will be a great gain for the spec on multiple dimensions.


    The problem with FFB is that it is linked to too many other things. It is linked to be a duplicate of Fireball for the 'elementalist' casters, as well as linked to Frost through brain freeze. So basically, we cannot touch its damage output without having to rebalance the entire system (so damage modifications are a no-no).

    What we are then left with is manipulating its cast time as an Arcane only thing (which is what frost does essentially through BF procs). However, according to the math, even if we made FFB instant, it still struggles to have a place in Arcane. The trick all comes down to whether or not it procs AMs. If it does, then we are in serious business for that particular cycle, if not, then it kind of sucks.


    That being said, here are a few simple math facts to get people's juices flowing about FFB.

    It has a higher DPM (damage per mana spent) of all Arcane Blast casts except for AB at 0 stack.
    It has higher DPS than AB0 and AB1.
    It has a lower MPS (mana per second) than all AB1+ casts.
    It is practically a mana neutral cast under RoP and IW
    It looks really cool, especially if followed immediately by an Arcane Barrage (you will have a combo with all three spell schools represented in a single global - which is neat imho).


    Either way, getting FFB a real use for Arcane is certainly a worthwhile goal to have. Just not in the abominable way that scorch was brought in. I still hold to this day that 'scorch camping' was a mongrel of a playstyle.

  3. #663
    High Overlord Sektorx's Avatar
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    The 10k haste I was talking about is not a "real" number. It was what I had available on my testgear and it felt barely (or even not) enough.

    The reason more haste felt better (I tried with mastery reforging too) was that I seemed to regen abit more mana when casting FFB and could weave in a few more AB's.

    What I did was basically building to 4 charges, use up procs, continuously cast FFB to fish for procs and cast AB if there were no procs and charges were about to drop. Also when mana went above 95% I would cast AB regardless of time left on charges. All of this with ROP ofcourse.

    As far as numbers go, I got similar to better results as with the regular mastery ROP thing but it requires alot of micromanaging to make it work because of the slow casttime of FFB compared to scorch, paired with the insanely high mana cost of 4 stacked AB.

    If you want tested numbers, I'll give you these:
    With ptr pvp gear, 5x tier 15 and the vendor trinket I did this:
    Reforged out of hit to simulate higher level gear. Using normal test dummy in Orgrimmar, the one that stands alone.
    10 minute runs with only selfbuffs, no images. Using troll racial combined with AP and AT.
    mastery ROP: 77-78 on average (4 or 5 runs)
    haste FFB ROP: 78-80 on average (12 runs)
    Last edited by Sektorx; 2013-03-06 at 04:01 PM.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Sektorx View Post
    The reason more haste felt better (I tried with mastery reforging too) was that I seemed to regen abit more mana when casting FFB and could weave in a few more AB's.
    Just so you know, this is a mathematical impossibility.

    Haste decreases your cast times as well as increasing your mana regen. The actual amount of mana you regenerate is independent of haste. The system was designed this way in order to compensate for the static mana pools of MoP.

    The only way you could be regenerating more mana with more haste, is if you were not casting at all, which is not the situation you describe.

    Basically, unless you are just standing around, haste has absolutely no impact on mana regeneration as far as cycles are concerned.


    Let me know if that does/doesn't make sense. If it doesn't, I'll try a more 'mathy' explanation.


    On a side point, I have been on a personal crusade against the confusion about haste since MoP beta. Many people seem to think more haste = more mana to spend. This is untrue since the haste to mana regen conversion only exists to make the static mana pool system even work, not as some form of buff or benefit of the haste stat itself.

  5. #665
    High Overlord Sektorx's Avatar
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    This feeling is backed by the following reason: more haste allows me to weave in more mana positive casts ( FFB) which allowed me in turn to cast more AB over the same time span. This is not about more mana per cast but over a set amount of time.
    You need to casts those AB wether you have the mana for them or not, if you want to keep your charges up. Often you have to refresh without 'wanting' too.

    edit: Mana postive is wrong choice of words. My lack of ability to express myself in the English language prohibits me from picking a better word.
    Last edited by Sektorx; 2013-03-06 at 04:37 PM.

  6. #666
    Hi Zomg, I'm pretty sure FFB does proc AM (unless the procs I see are from NT ticks). I'll log in an hour and see what AMs proc from hard casting FFB only.

    I think the point with haste is that yes it balances mana regen with cast speed, so if you cast AB only you see mana going down. Conversely, if you cast spells like Scorch (or FFB) the mana cost is low enough that you regen more than you consume. The feel then, more haste under low mana cost spells does give more regen, its just the relative cost of the spell driving the regen rather than haste. That's the reason Scorch worked and FFB could work.

    Next thought, if DPM of FFB is better is there a tipping point where gear scaling changes this ( I understood from you comment that FFB wasn't getting much spec specific scaling whereas the 'standard' arcane spells will be?)
    Last edited by Rublupine; 2013-03-06 at 04:46 PM.

  7. #667
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Think I should try the FFB thing tonight with a dummy and in a raid or is this just your hypothesis what could be done if it had a lower cast time?

  8. #668
    Oh no.. I know it procs AM, that's the only way it works! No need to spam dummies.


    The point I was making was above and beyond the fact that it was procs AMs (at the same rate as any other spell).

    The trick was trying to introduce FFB into Arcane's toolset. Right now, if you cast a FFB inside a regular Arcane cycle, it will be a DPS loss unless you gain a AM proc from it, otherwise it will be a significant DPS loss.

    What I was trying to do was to see how we can modify its usage (given different mana levels and hence different Mana Adept scalars) to see if we can change the outcome.

    Naturally, weaving it in between the 1st and 2nd AM (in order to get a 3rd AM proc) is the best bet, but the risk is high, i.e. if you weave it in and don't get a proc you loose a lot more DPS than you would gain if you gained the AM proc.


    I have also been experimenting with using it purely as a mana regen spell, but even those cycles don't come out well. I will still keep banging away at the math and trying different things to find a role for FFB in Arcane, I just don't think one exists yet

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Sektorx View Post
    mastery ROP: 77-78 on average (4 or 5 runs)
    haste FFB ROP: 78-80 on average (12 runs)
    Hey sep, what would you have pulled if this was on live last week?

  10. #670
    High Overlord Sektorx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rublupine View Post
    Hey sep, what would you have pulled if this was on live last week?
    No idea. I have not done dummy testing on Live realms at all.

  11. #671
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Ok. The damage isn't as bad as we thought.

    Zahim is the best geared of us three mages, but only a few item levels higher. He plays Fire. We killed three bosses tonight, both me and Zahim got the 522 Staff from Horridon and went to gem/enchant it. I still don't have the stupid A Test of Valor thing (don't ask) so I couldn't put one extra socket into my weapon.

    Jin'rokh: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8m...?s=1716&e=2006 - both times I tried to do a burst phase with AP and AT, I got the fucking annoying little orb which required kiting. Almost wiped the raid once as well because of AT. All things considered: good.

    Horridon: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8m...?s=7895&e=8572 - I died coz the tanks didn't see that a Drakkari was on me forever, got ressed instantly at low mana and had to build back up. All things considered: good.

    Council of Elders: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hukjv...e/?s=161&e=667 - this was just weird. No specific problems, lots of multidotting. It's a fun fight.

    Armory links if someone needs comparisons:
    Shangalar: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...angalar/simple
    Zahim: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...t/Zahim/simple
    Razieloth: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...zieloth/simple
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2013-03-06 at 11:32 PM.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Ok. The damage isn't as bad as we thought.
    I dunno shangs, all three of you mages were pretty much getting roflstomped by your warlocks (which is pretty much what everyone is reporting right now). That being said, it is good to see your frost mage up there.

    Also, your firemage needs to get his stat weights sorted out. He is at 509, but is not geared with good crit pieces (looks like he was Arcane last patch? So still carrying over a lot of that mastery). You, on the other hand, have a solid mastery rop build going, so you are optimized and he isn't.

    I'm sure with one or two upgrades he will start showing those locks what he can do. He's like at ~23% self buffed crit right now, that wont cut it. He needs to start regearing for crit asap or his performance will not be soo good.


    That being said, hopefully you will keep all three mages in your raids (and have them be the Arcane/Fire/Frost split). It will be good to see how you guys progress as things move on, ilvls rise and the fights become more familiar. We are trying to do that too, but even though we 'mandate' for our raiders to play what they want, our raiders do start swapping to 'optimal' specs on their own accord. We cannot stop them.

  13. #673
    I want to try Incanters Ward over RoP. 65% regen instead of 75%. Mana gem if the delta is too high after a while. I hate rop

  14. #674
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    - Snip -
    Holy crap Shang, didn't realise you were in Stormwatch haha. They used to be on my old realm before they switched :P I see that almost none of the old roster still raid though

    Back OT - it really does look like Frost is the best spec currently. Fire's fine/good when you get some decent RNG but Frost seems more reliable.

  15. #675
    Hello Shangalar Ive checked armoury and saw that Razieloth as frost going for more crit ... People been telling me that as frost haste still better and reforge all to haste . Asked here in frost forum , got answer haste most valuable... But seen his logs i doubt i do it right .. Im trying frost atm before they fixed arcane or we have any tweaks to master it. Could you pease lead me or ask your friend how much crit i should get at minimum ? (by the numbers please like 6786 , or 5463 , or sigh its juest easier for me to understand
    eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/hellfire/Poupi/advanced , this is my armoury , could you please lead me what i do wrong there.
    P.S. I really hope ill be able to play arcane again.

  16. #676
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    I urge you to use the Frost mage guide which is just next to this thread on the sticky list. I am really not an expert in Frost.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 10:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Holy crap Shang, didn't realise you were in Stormwatch haha. They used to be on my old realm before they switched :P I see that almost none of the old roster still raid though

    Back OT - it really does look like Frost is the best spec currently. Fire's fine/good when you get some decent RNG but Frost seems more reliable.
    Yeah I joined Stormwatch 2 months ago after "disbanding" (alts still there) my old raiding guild where I spent 3 years and was second in command. GM mostly offline due to real life issues since last summer. Was quite a sad moment, but Stormwatch is a nice guild and the people are fun.

  17. #677
    The reason i asked you here because in frost section they said haste but your guildie who performs good has more crit. I ust thought you may know

  18. #678
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elenica View Post
    The reason i asked you here because in frost section they said haste but your guildie who performs good has more crit. I ust thought you may know
    We have been talking about it a little in the frost guide. Unless you're a very high ilvl or on the cutting edge of progression just stick with haste>crit.
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  19. #679
    Shang, seeing your jinrok log just made me cringe, just knowing that a week ago you could have done 70-80k more on that fight

    Are you planning to stay arcane all tier? I'm really interested to see how it scales with gear, especially since most cloth gear seems to favor crit/haste and crit/mastery rather than ideal arcane stats

  20. #680
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    As I said, I didn't have a chance to do a single burst phase with all procs and cooldowns because of the orbs. The kill try was by far my worst. Check the try before: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8m...?s=1166&e=1369

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