1. #341
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    It could be good if BF-FFB could refresh also the debuff. It could make a interesting link between FFB & IL.
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  2. #342
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    I think if a hardcast frostfire bolt could refresh the debuff but not increase the stacks it would be a great way to add some more depth to frost quite easily.

    Making brain freeze refresh it would just simplify frost even more.
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  3. #343
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    Most important thing is damage output tuning! If frost stays that weak (even ~10% weaker on PTR), only frost addicted and maybe some normal mode players will play frost, but it will never be a real option for an progress orientated mage : /

  4. #344
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    GC has stated that they haven't began the tuning yet.
    Gear was only implemented in this week build and heroic raid testing won't began before a week or more.
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  5. #345
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    But GC also stated, that frost is in a very good shape on live servers right now (internal testing), and there are too less parses for a reasonable comparson (raidbots). He still thinks, that frost would be do way better, if more players would play that spec (what is not true).
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-02-07 at 03:39 PM.

  6. #346
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    But GC also stated, that frost is in a very good shape on live servers right now (internal testing), and there are too less parses for a reasonable comparson (raidbots). He still thinks, that frost would be do way better, if more players would play that spec (what is not true).
    It's because of the bias caused by less sample in comparison with high number of sample.
    Statistic comparison need a lot of sample to give good result. In short, Frost haven't enough sample to use this tool for a good comparison.
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  7. #347
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Frost is barely played on live. That much is evident by anyone who has posted logs as frost and been amazed at how well they've ranked.

    I sincerely hope the number tuning on the ptr puts frost in a place where it's competitive with the other specs as getting used to a new spec is so very annoying. Nothing to do but wait and hope for the best at this point.
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  8. #348
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Just to be short, Frost is competitive.
    It's just that the majority go for the "best" spec. At first, it was Fire then Arcane.
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  9. #349
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    For me, Frost is NOT competitive! I´ve joined a new guild as a frost mage, did pretty well - for a frost mage - but they´ve told me it´s not enough. This ID I switched to Arcane (with invo and haste) and did 55k more on garajal 250k more on windlord 80k more on lei shi 20k more on tsulong 30k more on empress and feng and gazillion more damage on sha heroic to name a few examples from the top of my head. If I would stick to my beloved frost spec, I would not obtain a spot for the next 25h progress, I would sit on bench without any loot (did get a lot of loot this ID, just because of my very good performance).

    Frost is worlds behind and another one on PTR right now.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-02-08 at 09:25 AM.

  10. #350
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    It just that Arcane is far ahead. It was stated by GC, confirmed by your number.
    And nerf will come down !!!

    Seriously, it's always a problem of point of view that have been discussed here a lot.
    The term "competitive" differ for casual players, for progression raid players and for server first player.
    I'm in a progression guild. My raid lead only demand that we know strat and are optimised correctly.
    But in DS, we finish #16 server. At that time it was another history, I have both a Fire and an Arcane spec, 2 set of gear for optimisation, etc.

    In the first case, Frost is competitive from my point of view. In the second case, Frost wasn't.


    But in all case, it is far too early to tell what will be the better spec in 5.2.
    Blizzard just give a schedule that go for all February. They only began LFR raid testing and they haven't began Heroic testing.

    Conclusion : we will have to make BiS, etc. But with a little month ahead, we can expect some other change.
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  11. #351
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    Yes you´re right with the PoV thing, but it´s pretty annoying, that I was playing nearly perfect on garajal heroic as frost and did 125k. I was really statisfied with myself, but all the druids, rogues, hunters, locks and what not did around 140k. I was cheering with 455k (#1 as frost at that time) on windlord heroic as frost and had a pretty good time, enjoyed that raid night, but after empress they told me: "your frost parses are very good, but dps is too low. Do something or otherwise you will be benched".

    On Wednesday I did 180k on garajal heroic as arcane with one hand! (No joke!) I was eating besides the fight, because I have all I need for arcane bound on my mouse (except AT macro). Then I did 700k on Windlord, not exactly know how (with frost bomb) and the scales fell from my eyes: All the work, all the math, all the beta testing, all the mini-micro-frost management were for the birds, because I need really nothing to know for arcane. Burn to 20%, maybe use AM only with 2 stacks by passing 50% mana and hit the macro every 3 minute. Yesterday the fellow mages in my guild changed to haste/invo as well and did nearly similar dps. So why bother with frost anymore? I mean, I went through all the tiers since I started playing wow with frost. Even waiting behind the pillars on morchok with frost, because of the 35yrds range, casting under gcd on sinestra etc. Next tier we got so much haste, that we have a lot of work to do, to get back under gcd hardcap (T15 2p, legendary gem, trinkets, haste from gear, troll racial etc.).

    The current playstyle on PTR is not very compelling to be honest. No words from GC about frost scaling (except the post about scaling in general, where he stated in a roundabout way, that we are all blind morons), and no word about water jet so far. All what me leaves from unspeccing frost (2nd spec) are the memories and the colour.

    Sorry if my wrote is too "whiney", but I´m really frustrated!

  12. #352
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    I know how you feel. I tried invocation/haste arcane a week ago and was amazed at the stationary dps it does. Thats the problem though, its only really good when you're not moving or there's a mechanic where you burn like wind lord heroic.

    I'm still not sure but I think arcane might scale better then frost which at your ilvl is going to cause a bigger dps difference.

    I think you are better geared and have done a lot more progression than most frost players so you are experiencing problems that most of us yet haven't come across. I'm quite surprised that you've even been allowed to play frost considering you're 16/16H.

    If you can stand playing arcane then play it. You just can't argue it has the best dps.

    I'm in a much more casual raid team then you and I have the liberty to play what I want since I still top the meters as frost. I also personally find the mobility of arcane extremely frustrating on fights with more movement. Arcane's mobility in DS was fine but this tier it just doesn't work as well imo.

    In the end there's nothing you can do but make a decision as to wether you like frost enough to find another raid team. I suspect not and you'll just have to be content with arcane.
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  13. #353
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    The current playstyle on PTR is not very compelling to be honest. No words from GC about frost scaling (except the post about scaling in general, where he stated in a roundabout way, that we are all blind morons), and no word about water jet so far. All what me leaves from unspeccing frost (2nd spec) are the memories and the colour.

    Sorry if my wrote is too "whiney", but I´m really frustrated!
    I feel frustated too. THe only things GC do about frost scaling have been to change 2pT15 (after some math demonstration on twitter with Lhiv).

    They can make like with Arcane that can be both Haste or Mastery stacking. But it require some serious change to be done to bring up Mastery to be on par with Haste. Or to give us some serious Haste breakpoint for something like that: hit > haste (cap) > crit (cap) > mastery = haste >> crit
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  14. #354
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    Frost was the reason to continue wow after free playing time : ) My new guild was very wary about the new mage, that only plays frost. I´ve joined with ilvl 493 and my damage was okay, but - of course, way behind the other mages with ilvl 5xx. I catched up with gear to 497 and the increase was minimal. I think I already reached the point, were frost scaling reaches its limits (basic output is too low aswell).

    To bad I´m not on twitter, I really would like to have seen that : ) Another thing what is pretty weird to me is, why do they damage tuning at the end of PTR? We have all done some PTR raid tests right now and as soon as 25 and heroic (10 or 25) testing is available, our guild expect to play with the potentially best spec. Why not adjust numbers right now? And after some more test they could do more adjustments. Really don´t get it.

    As you said Nathyiel, some serious changes! Without that, frost will stay a niche spec for enthusiasts. Would looking forward to have a choice between different playing styles, like arcane has right now.

  15. #355
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    If there wasn't big change in the next patch or two, then it will be damage tweaking.
    They proceed like this:
    class spell change > raid test to check bug/exploit > another change > re-test > etc.
    When they are globally ok, they began the same but with damage change instead of class change.

    Now, the things we know that going to change: Invocation mana regen & Invocation with Evoc glyph.

    And for tweeter, the only respond we receive was a change in the next built. GC respond very rarely to direct question but I can they for sure that some on blizzard read here.
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  16. #356
    "We don't scale well enough with haste this tier"

    what does that mean? I am not a big of theorycrafter but scaling means how much benefit class gets from 1 point of stat. It has nothing to do with tiers. For an example if int gave +1 dmg per 1 point of int, that does not suddenly change if you equip next tier gear, Int still gives +1dmg

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    "We don't scale well enough with haste this tier"

    what does that mean? I am not a big of theorycrafter but scaling means how much benefit class gets from 1 point of stat. It has nothing to do with tiers. For an example if int gave +1 dmg per 1 point of int, that does not suddenly change if you equip next tier gear, Int still gives +1dmg
    Tiers come into play when there are caps.
    Many stats, after a certain point, dip dramatically in effectiveness. Their value per point does not remain constant.
    Once we reliably (sometimes even unavoidably) hit a certain cap then that stat becomes far less valuable and so ceases to "scale well".

    Not only do we have plenty of gear pieces with haste on it but half of the available trinkets also proc haste and the new legendary meta gem gives a mini-bloodlust effect, thus granting... more haste.
    We're drowning in haste, and once we're GCD capped for Frostbolt it just isn't that handy.

  18. #358
    Yeah but if we are already past diminishing returns point, then how does next tier make this better?

  19. #359
    You're only at that point with the very best gear you can get currently, in 5.2 it'll be widely accessible.

  20. #360
    Btw what is "crit cap"?

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