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  1. #21
    I switched to Insight for our raids tonight. I didnt even realize they nerfed stuff today.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4KhazModan View Post
    I have no mop exp as it stands, is that resulting 70k from any particular mechanic? Or is our damage really that high now?
    We have really powerful AoE atm. And I did take quite a bit less damage than the other tank too. Keeping SHOTR up a lot, plus "Hand of Purity" (this fight has a constant bleed on you) do really make wonders and our healers do say paladin seems the easiest to heal atm.


  3. #23
    gonna say the nerf wasnt really deserved.. every other tank still hits just as hard with vengeance and aoe doesnt matter much cuz mostly its just trash. there are classes doing 180-200k aoe dmg and for us to lose most of our single target dmg kinda sucks. maybe the nerf was needed but im thinking more of a 10-20% dmg nerf not 80%

  4. #24
    Tanking was a breeze last night with Seal of Insight on. I also took a lot of my reforging to haste to increase the up time on SHOTR. That helped the healer out a lot when chain running heroics. I had all my random healers sitting above 80% mana the entire time. Easy way to gear up running as a prot paladin.

  5. #25
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    I've never used SoI up until they announced the changes and I was getting just destroyed by mobs in the Heroic Dungeons. After the changes and with me tanking with SoI I have been out healing my healers and not taking very much damage at all. Will report back when I do raid this weekend to see how it is in the raid setting.

    Also with SoI I'm able to solo 91 Rare Mobs as well. The healing from it kept me up on one of them, not sure which.

  6. #26
    Tried out SoI + Battle Healer last night in some heroics, and it is stupidly OP. Saves the healer truckloads of mana. My fiancee who plays a Mistweaver pretty much spent 90% of her time spamming SCK to kill stuff faster.

    Also i noticed just from switching to SOI from SOT that my survivability went through the roof, very little can outright kill me now. Not even packs in Shado-Pan challenge mode make me break a sweat.

  7. #27
    Honestly, threat is so easy to generate through concecration on it's new CD anyway. So I use Insight and I simply CANNOT die (With a decent healer still ofc).

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    Already probably the last-place tanks for damage output, protection paladins get a 50% boost to a 15-second cooldown (okay, so it does have a cooldown reset proc) and a 100% boost to a 9-second cooldown, but lose 80% of the damage from their most damaging single-target ability.
    You lose 80% on a dot, a mechanic that still isn't capped on multi target fights. That's why protpalas, protwarrs and sv-hunter are topping the meters everytime when adds are involved - and well there're a lot of options to AoE in this tier. If the other changes to counter that don't add up on the single target damage and other tanking classes are miles ahead they'll end up buffing paladins again, don't worry about that. It didn't took them one full id of raiding to bring that hotfix, thus it must have been necessary in their opinion.

  9. #29
    Tanking after the hotfix I can safely say that the only problem with protection paladin damage -- and the reason someone can say our damage is horrible and another can say it's overpowered, and both be right -- is that it's a scaling issue. Our base damage is abysmal, but our AP scaling is enormous. Without Vengeance we're pathetic, but with a lot of it, we're crazy.

    I'm guessing base damage will see a significant buff in the next month while scaling will take a hit.

    Tanking in SoI, I only do around 15k dps with little or no vengeance, but I was doing 65,000 dps and 16,000 hp/sec the other night while trying to help a friend farm her Coren Direbrew dps trinket. I was 50% of the damage and 60% of the effective healing.

    We enjoy amazing Vengeance scaling -- among the best -- but suffer from horrible baseline dps.

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    They say it was always intended that we use SoI but I personally don't believe that. The switching of Righteous and Truth based on the situation seemed to flow too well for protection for it to simply be a wash over from the ret play style. Where I think they've faulted is in the fact that SoR is now more appealing than ever.

    Threat itself isn't an issue but with all our AoE spells cd based (no on demand method of picking up adds initially if your mid rotation) it can make pulls much easier to have a mild amount of threat going to all adds on melee swings to hold it until your hor is available.

    As far as dps goes you'd be better with SoR for single target over Truth. Whether or not its worth it on bleeding edge content I'm yet to come to a decision on, but the nature of insight's healing will always ensure that security is its purpose even at high vengeance. You'll rarely see anyone praising a tick of insight for saving their lives on a boss kill. The addition of vengeance helps it immensely though, if they do return vengeance to its original model this gameplay will suffer as a result.

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  11. #31
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Did first couple of bosses in the raid last night running with SoI and Battle Healer glyph together with Light's Hammer (honestly a great additional raid healing cd) - i must say i was most pleasantly surprised by the results. All i can say is that it seems a bit OP...ignoring trash (though we really shined here in both damage and healing) we were all surprised at the numbers i was pulling on the stone dogs fight (i was tanking 2 of the dogs at all times) - being top dps (85k) and pulling 30k hps (~50% on self / ~50% on raid) really helped healers top people up, and i had no survivability issues myself at all - barely used strong self cds for survival. The fact that we seem to act as an additional raid healer in such a scenario really made the fight so much easier. Honestly im expecting nerfs....loving the Battle Healer glyph.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    I am sorry to say that, but whoever designed these changes has no clue on current situation with prot. paladins. They must be buffed in damage across board by at least 100% in all abilities. It is shame when I get my blood DK lv85, whom I don't really know how to play and who isn't even fully DS normal geared, and I deal more damage on him than on my lv90 paladin. I won't go in depth on how it is frustrating will it be to tank with other co-tanks in raids, who have way more damage and thus threat, but mere doing of dailies is not even a chore but a highest form of masochism, especially with damage barely scaling with gear.
    I am really sorry but I am going to have to totally disagree with you here. I am not sure if you have not yet raided on your level 90 paladin however the results I am recieving is promising. Let me give a little bit of info (I can maybe even link the WOL).

    I recently killed the Stone Guard and the results I received were promising. I still did 40k/DPS however with SoI I also did 30k/HPS. I totally agree that our damage has been nerfed (80% is a massive margin). However it was too much in my honest opinion. Were now doing satisfactory damage in raids and the SoI self healing is awesome. This certainly feels like its more than any other tank (although I have to admit I have not seen a blood DK Yet). I believe that the current state of paladins in raids is pretty good (although they could improve the initial thread of one of our pull abilities so that we generate a little more before we start getting stacks of vegence - especially when the DPS are critting for such a large amount).

    I do feel that prot single target damage outside of raids (ever tried to do a daily as prot?) mobs with 1.2mil HP take forever to kill. The mobs dont really hit hard so we get no vegence thats worth nothing - instead its just painful. I do believe this is a serious problem and that Blizz still need to balance this up so we can kill things outside of raids.

    Thanks

  13. #33
    i've only really been doing dailies so far with seal of insight (been focusing on levelling my monk) but from what i've found, it's a godsend.

    i can round up 10-12 level 90 mobs (including a couple of elites - i do the tillers dailies) and nuke em all down without any issues at all - i was doing the same thing before the change, but was having to use every self heal i had to keep me up whilst using SoT. SoI self healing is immense, it's made AoE farming for daily quests about 10x easier., i barely move from full health unless i pull too much

    looking at the damage/healing logs posted by angerstrike, i'm kinda looking forward to getting into MSV
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  14. #34
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pridelock View Post
    I am really sorry but I am going to have to totally disagree with you here. I am not sure if you have not yet raided on your level 90 paladin however the results I am recieving is promising. Let me give a little bit of info (I can maybe even link the WOL).

    I recently killed the Stone Guard and the results I received were promising. I still did 40k/DPS however with SoI I also did 30k/HPS. I totally agree that our damage has been nerfed (80% is a massive margin). However it was too much in my honest opinion. Were now doing satisfactory damage in raids and the SoI self healing is awesome. This certainly feels like its more than any other tank (although I have to admit I have not seen a blood DK Yet). I believe that the current state of paladins in raids is pretty good (although they could improve the initial thread of one of our pull abilities so that we generate a little more before we start getting stacks of vegence - especially when the DPS are critting for such a large amount).

    I do feel that prot single target damage outside of raids (ever tried to do a daily as prot?) mobs with 1.2mil HP take forever to kill. The mobs dont really hit hard so we get no vegence thats worth nothing - instead its just painful. I do believe this is a serious problem and that Blizz still need to balance this up so we can kill things outside of raids.

    Thanks
    My co tank last night was a blood DK - absolutely blow her out of the water in the self heals department (never mind the raid healing component). We scale extremely well with vengence.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, it was on 2 bosses. We got very high cleave atm + vengeance.
    Agree - tanking 2 of the stone dogs means our recently buffed avengers shield hits like a truck. Make that 2 trucks. Cant wait til we get more gear and we aoe nuke down all three dogs together - now that will be BIG numbers.

  15. #35
    Wait how is it news to everyone that SOI is our tanking seal? The moment I heard it boosted our healing AND gave haste AND the heal procced off each hammer of righteous hit it was clear that it was the go to tanking seal (at least for progression fights).

    I guess levelling my paladin solo through dungeons kinda nailed it into me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pridelock View Post
    I do feel that prot single target damage outside of raids (ever tried to do a daily as prot?) mobs with 1.2mil HP take forever to kill. The mobs dont really hit hard so we get no vegence thats worth nothing - instead its just painful. I do believe this is a serious problem and that Blizz still need to balance this up so we can kill things outside of raids.
    Even at lower levels our single-target is pretty terrible (unless you're lucky with AS) though mobs hit like a wet noodle (and hotr with soi works wonders) so there's always the option of pulling all the mobs in an area and taking them down in one go, just like the good old days.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by fishface View Post
    Wait how is it news to everyone that SOI is our tanking seal? The moment I heard it boosted our healing AND gave haste AND the heal procced off each hammer of righteous hit it was clear that it was the go to tanking seal (at least for progression fights).

    I guess levelling my paladin solo through dungeons kinda nailed it into me.



    Even at lower levels our single-target is pretty terrible (unless you're lucky with AS) though mobs hit like a wet noodle (and hotr with soi works wonders) so there's always the option of pulling all the mobs in an area and taking them down in one go, just like the good old days.
    I have been mainly using SoI since release even pre-nerf of SoV. However I would guess that SoV would still have been the goto seal for raids. The damage increase is often more benefitial than the healing increase in raid environment.

  17. #37
    oi spec lights hammer. in 5 mans i was getting 100k ticks on dmg/healing. 120k vengeance from raid bosses? lights hammer becomes a 16 second tranq every minute. great for feng; rotate the bubble mechanic and hammer for his epicentres

  18. #38
    our prot pally held 25k hps last night and never had threat issues. I don't see the problem.

  19. #39
    Blademaster
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    i dont see the issue with pala's as grimlord mentioned on page 1 we are topping dmg on fights and the healing we do is just insane 180k avengers shields and 100k+ wrath GG

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire Drfireburns's Avatar
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    The SoI buff is indeed a Godsend. The healing is insane, and the damage increase is great. Top 3 dps/healing every single fight. I love it.

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