Jewelcrafting STILL the worst profession.

[Holofernes]

if u are a caster dps, u will socket int . so no disadvantage, id didnt hear of a caster dps, who had a secondory stat beeing half as good as int. +320 int. like every other profession.

If u are a healer, u willl socket spirit . This is an advantage, as other profesion only offer pure int(bs excludid), and any healer that sockets int (or pure int) is a retard nowadays, as 2ndary stats will giv doulbe / triple the troughput compared to int.
+960 spirit, instead of +640 on. cool stuff. 320 spirit is way more worth than 320 int from other professions.


If u are a melee dps, no idea but i assume agi / str is the way to go, same bargain as every other profession. in no way, u are worse.

tho only problem i could possibly see from the op is that the lack of socket slots dont allow him to use his sockes efficiently? Thats why jewelcrafting synergises with blacksmithing. U can put any jc gem into the bs sockets, so problem solved.

[Vober]

JC/BS are the best two professions to get. In the first few weeks of raiding in a new Xpack Engineering is better i'd say because of the epic helm + Engineering sockets. After that it's JC/BS all the way. You can't beat an extra +320 of a stat.

[Erionn]

You only get 3 serpent's eyes, regardless of your second profession. The difference between a JC with no secondary profession (call it a JC/--) and a JC/BS is two non-serpent gems. The difference between a BS/-- and a --/-- is two non-serpent gems.

Put another way: I don't know the actual numbers, but JC gives you X extra stats in your stat of choice while BS gives you Y extra stats in the stat of your choice, and JC/BS combo gives you X + Y. There's no synergy, they add together the same way any other two professions do.

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:38 PM ----------



Ok now you're arguing about semantics to make what you were hoping was a smartass point but really just showed that you didn't understand he was comparing only PVE-worthwhile professions, and also to argue about money which is irrelevant in this thread.

Except you only get 2 Serpent's Eyes. Which you can easily put in the 2 Blacksmithing sockets.

[Deleted]

You only get 3 serpent's eyes, regardless of your second profession. The difference between a JC with no secondary profession (call it a JC/--) and a JC/BS is two non-serpent gems. The difference between a BS/-- and a --/-- is two non-serpent gems.

Put another way: I don't know the actual numbers, but JC gives you X extra stats in your stat of choice while BS gives you Y extra stats in the stat of your choice, and JC/BS combo gives you X + Y. There's no synergy, they add together the same way any other two professions do.

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 04:38 PM ----------



Ok now you're arguing about semantics to make what you were hoping was a smartass point but really just showed that you didn't understand he was comparing only PVE-worthwhile professions, and also to argue about money which is irrelevant in this thread.

Money is not irrelevant. If the op wnats to say something then he should say it clearly and unambiguously. You seem to wnat to ignore anything that inconvneinet or disagrees with your pint of view rather than addressing the points made, which you again show your incapability to do.

You seem to think there is a written law which states all professions must be equal and fair. Some are stronger than others. If he wnats the best for pve, then why doesnt he pick which are the two strongest? You cant then expect to have the two strongest money making professions as well. Stop whining about how hard done by you are as a JC. If I only picked one profession it would be a JC. If he doesnt like it pick something else.

[Magpai]

Except you only get 2 Serpent's Eyes. Which you can easily put in the 2 Blacksmithing sockets.

Ok, so substitute 2 in for 3 in my original post. The rest is still correct.

[Peacemoon]

JC's should just have extra sockets like Blacksmiths, not unique gems.

[underdogba]

JC's should just have extra sockets like Blacksmiths, not unique gems.

I thought this for the longest time, add sockets to both rings and you're good to go, prof is immediately balanced.

---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 01:24 PM ----------

Everyone needs gems, therefore JC is one of the best professions in my book. lol

Everyone needs enchants. Everyone needs glyphs. Everyone needs shoulder enchants. Everyone needs belt buckles.

I don't see what this really proves.

[Thirtyrock]

I don't know, as a Protadin who needs to be hit and expertise capped the Serpent's eyes are extremely valuable. I have one blue and one red, hit and expertise respectively. It's strong for me, but I can see how someone who doesn't have such high caps of certain stats would feel different. Hit and Expertise are MUCH MUCH better for me until the caps, so It's worth it to gem pure until I get capped.

[underdogba]

I don't know, as a Protadin who needs to be hit and expertise capped the Serpent's eyes are extremely valuable. I have one blue and one red, hit and expertise respectively. It's strong for me, but I can see how someone who doesn't have such high caps of certain stats would feel different. Hit and Expertise are MUCH MUCH better for me until the caps, so It's worth it to gem pure until I get capped.

The point is that the JC only gems are itemized in such a way that they ignore the double-itemization of secondaries on gems, which makes BS give double the benefit if you're a class/spec that would gem secondaries.

Read the OP.

[Rotted]

At least Serpent's Eyes are easier to get, but yeah...when it comes to secondary stats, BS beats us by a country mile simply because 2x blue secondary gems is 640 of that stat versus the static extra 320 that JC gets from using, say, Fractured Serpent's Eyes.

It's an easy fix really, Blizzard just needs to make the Yellow jeweler gems worth +640 to that stat instead of +480.

JC and BS here, cant complain

/flex

[Simca]

Honestly, most of the specs I've seen still prefer gemming straight red (Feral, Retribution, and all 3 Warlock specs), so it doesn't end up mattering to me.

It would be nice to fix however.

Still, if you want to always have BiS raiding professions, pick up BS/Engineering and be done with it. Engineering is overpowered as shit (and has been since Wrath), and Blacksmithing's bonus is so straight forward that it is nearly impossible to be nerfed or done wrong.

In the first few weeks of raiding in a new Xpack Engineering is better i'd say because of the epic helm + Engineering sockets.

Engineering is always better. While the gadgets have a chance to backfire, almost every class has a way to negate those backfires, and Engineering is the only profession that has multiple perks (goblin glider, nitro boosts, AND the +stats in the form of a CD which can be stacked with other CDs for a higher benefit than using a +static stat boost). The only exception is for healers and some tanks.

[Ebbikenezer]

We're not talking money. We're talking balance.

^This is the statement that started destroying the game, 2005-present.

Any single one of us can claim that something we do in the game isn't balanced to everything else.

Tough shit, go get a fucking box of tissues, unsub and move on.

[ZeroEdgeir]

So, the OP doesn't like that for HIS class and spec, the JC gems aren't a full 100% superior to a normal gem...

Last I checked, similar issues exist with other profs:
Tailoring has no cloak embroidery for tanking - Inferior
Engineering Synapse Springs only give primary stats - Inferior for any class that weights the 2x value of secondary stats higher over said primary
Enchanting Ring enchants only give primary stats - Inferior for any class that weights the 2x value of secondary stats higher over said primary
Leatherworking Wrist Linings only give primary stats - Inferior for any class that weights the 2x value of secondary stats higher over said primary

Yes, I know many of these have no secondary stat budgets available to them as alternatives (normal wrist enchants are ONLY +Primary as well, there is no normal ring enchants, tinker stacks with enchants)... the point is: All professions are balanced around the base value of PRIMARY STATS.

Blacksmithing can yield more for those who value secondary stats higher, yes. That is NOT every class or spec.
Jewelcrafting, compared to every other prof, offers EQUAL gains (be it static or averaged on a proc/CD) to a primary attribute (Gathering profs excluded).

Your argument is invalid, cause you are using the point that "your class/spec values secondary stats higher so...". I play a Ret Paladin. So I got 2 Haste = 1.04 Strength. Am I crying about it? No. The value difference is pretty nominal. And I am not bleeding-edge progression where if I don't try to scrape out every 0.0001% extra DPS, I am bad. Every class and/or spec has different priorities.

[Thirtyrock]

The point is that the JC only gems are itemized in such a way that they ignore the double-itemization of secondaries on gems, which makes BS give double the benefit if you're a class/spec that would gem secondaries.

Read the OP.

sigh

You evidently misunderstood me. My other stats are WORTHLESS until I'm hit 7.5% and exp 15%
Putting ANY gems towards those stats before hit and exp hard cap is stupid for a Protadin. After Hit and exp hard cap then yes, the value of serpent's eyes is significantly reduced.

[Lamoot]

I've made almost 150k gold so far with JCing alone. I don't know why you think this is the worse profession. And that's with a minimal amount of time spent farming ore and prospecting.

[ZeroEdgeir]

sigh

You evidently misunderstood me. My other stats are WORTHLESS until I'm hit 7.5% and exp 15%
Putting ANY gems towards those stats before hit and exp hard cap is stupid for a Protadin. After Hit and exp hard cap then yes, the value of serpent's eyes is significantly reduced.

I play Prot offspec, and while I'll agree on the hit cap and expertise soft-cap, the expertise hardcap seems a little extreme, when all that could be shoved into mastery instead.

[blackblade]

I posted this on the Battle.net forums, but knowing the responses I'm likely to get down there, I decided to start a discussion of the same topic here.

After spending all of DS as the undisputed inferior profession in terms of stat bonuses, JC is once again the runt of the pack going into MoP.

Because secondary stat budgets are now doubled on gems, this changes the way we slot our sockets. If we have a secondary stat that is weighted more than half of our primary stat, we are now supposed to gem pure secondary stats in blue/yellows, and hybrids in reds.

The JC exclusive gems were not given double budget for secondary stats, so we're still stuck with pure reds for JC gems.

However, this 320 extra stats from JC gems requires a red gem in a red socket. This would have been fine if we were gemming pure reds in red sockets anyways, but now we have a better option in the form of hybrid gems with double secondary stats. To obtain the JC stat bonus, we forgo the superior hydrid gem in favor of pure reds.

Because of this, the relative gain of using JC gems is LESS than 320 stats.

To fix this, the best option would be to provide hydrid JC gems that provide extra primary stats, such as +240 (80+160) strength and + 160 haste. This allows us to gem hybrid serpent's eyes while still obtaining the same +320 stat bonus standard on professions.

EDIT: Since apparently gathering professions are somehow still being taken into account when determining BiS professions, I will now say this explicitly: I am ignoring the gathering professions because their PvE bonuses are and have always been completely negligible.

Also, I'd like to point out that this argument only applies if you play a spec with a secondary stat weighted at more than half of your primary stat, but less than your primary stat.

There's two problems present for JC to be good:
Sockets are not abundant on pre-raid-gear: Heroic dropped Pants, chest, shoulders and helms are the only blue items i've seen so far (and their pvp equivalents) with sockets. Every socket is extremely meaningful, because unless you're doing great in pvp, or you're running heroics nonstop to get those four pieces to drop and in your bags, you're probably only going to have 2-3 gems before raid gear. This will be corrected with time.

The second kicker is the lack of hybrid gems and the new gemming formula. I'd guess this'll get adressed.



From a min/max standpoint, Blacksmithing is currently on top. Two extra sockets (still?) give you room to put any gem (hybrid or otherwise) technically putting you somewhat ahead of all the other classes. Engineering, Alchemy, tailoring, leatherworking, and Inscription kinda get boned when it comes to that degree of flexibility. JC is probably better than those three simply because it's got more options, lower costs than alchemy, even with the higher barrier to entry (in the form of the needed sockets.)

[Thirtyrock]

I play Prot offspec, and while I'll agree on the hit cap and expertise soft-cap, the expertise hardcap seems a little extreme, when all that could be shoved into mastery instead.

http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/05/dam...ing-follow-up/

Is why you hit hard cap. It is more overall damage but reduces the number of spikes resulting in the smoothest possible damage intake. This, in turn, reduces the amount of flash heal type heals you need, which in turn saves healer mana.

[darkwarrior42]

Money is not irrelevant. If the op wnats to say something then he should say it clearly and unambiguously. You seem to wnat to ignore anything that inconvneinet or disagrees with your pint of view rather than addressing the points made, which you again show your incapability to do.

You seem to think there is a written law which states all professions must be equal and fair. Some are stronger than others. If he wnats the best for pve, then why doesnt he pick which are the two strongest? You cant then expect to have the two strongest money making professions as well. Stop whining about how hard done by you are as a JC. If I only picked one profession it would be a JC. If he doesnt like it pick something else.

Right, so either you're just trolling or you horribly misread the thread. I'll assume the latter for the sake of argument.

In response to your first point, here's a quote taken directly from the ORIGINAL POST, with the important phrase bolded for emphasis.

After spending all of DS as the undisputed inferior profession in terms of stat bonuses, JC is once again the runt of the pack going into MoP.

So what did he state in an ambiguous fashion? That sentence alone clearly indicates he's looking at the strength of professions as they relate to stat boosts, not in relation to any other value they might have (including money).

In response to the second point.... they obviously intend gathering professions to be weaker in terms of stat boosts, and they've stated in the past that they want the remainder of the professions to be approximately on par. Do you know why he chose to be a JC? I don't, because he didn't say why anywhere in this thread. You have taken your irrelevant counter-point, assumed that it is the actual reason the OP chose the profession, and used this completely fabricated position as a basis from which to attack the OP's position. If the OP chose JC because it's one of the strongest money makers and the OP also wants the strongest stat boosts in the game in addition to one of the strongest money makers and it were true that the strongest money makers should not be equal to the strongest stat boosts, then you might have a point. However, you have only assumed these points.
-Side note: I disagree regarding money making because much of the profit of JC is driving by player design, and other professions can easily be as profitable, if not more so, if used intelligently. The gathering professions are consistent money makers and are weaker, but are also easier and cheaper to level, which is likely the reason they confer weaker stat boosts. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to take the crafting professions you like and still be competitive from a stat perspective.

Not that it matters; I'd be shocked if Blizzard changed the system as it currently stands at all, and if they do I still wouldn't expect it for at least 3 major content patches.

[Deleted]

I posted this on the Battle.net forums, but knowing the responses I'm likely to get down there, I decided to start a discussion of the same topic here.

After spending all of DS as the undisputed inferior profession in terms of stat bonuses, JC is once again the runt of the pack going into MoP.

Because secondary stat budgets are now doubled on gems, this changes the way we slot our sockets. If we have a secondary stat that is weighted more than half of our primary stat, we are now supposed to gem pure secondary stats in blue/yellows, and hybrids in reds.

The JC exclusive gems were not given double budget for secondary stats, so we're still stuck with pure reds for JC gems.

However, this 320 extra stats from JC gems requires a red gem in a red socket. This would have been fine if we were gemming pure reds in red sockets anyways, but now we have a better option in the form of hybrid gems with double secondary stats. To obtain the JC stat bonus, we forgo the superior hydrid gem in favor of pure reds.

Because of this, the relative gain of using JC gems is LESS than 320 stats.

To fix this, the best option would be to provide hydrid JC gems that provide extra primary stats, such as +240 (80+160) strength and + 160 haste. This allows us to gem hybrid serpent's eyes while still obtaining the same +320 stat bonus standard on professions.

EDIT: Since apparently gathering professions are somehow still being taken into account when determining BiS professions, I will now say this explicitly: I am ignoring the gathering professions because their PvE bonuses are and have always been completely negligible.

Also, I'd like to point out that this argument only applies if you play a spec with a secondary stat weighted at more than half of your primary stat, but less than your primary stat.

So your complaint is you can't prioritse a secondary stat over a primary stat?

I hate to break this to you.

This is exactly the same for....

Alchemy (+primary stat on flask) I guess you could include spirit zomg I am so glad I am an Alc
Eng (+primary stat with springs)
Inscription (+primary stat on shoulder enchants)
Leatherworking (+primary stat on wrist enchants)
Enchanting (+primary stat on ring)

So what your whining about is Blacksmithing is OP if you are in the very rare case where you priotise a secondary stat > a primary stat.

I am afraid that is VERY different to "Jewelcrafting STILL the worst profession."