Is Transhumanity Inevitable?

[Decagon]

But then we encounter the ship of theseus problem; if we replace all our parts, are we still fundamentally human?

Who cares? If we evolve into super-human or cyborgs that can work at 20x the speed we can now, why should be care if we're "human"?

[mindvox]

I sure hope so, I imagine when the singularity occurs we will see advancement in medical technology change very quickly.

"I never asked for this"
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[Elegiac]

Who cares? If we evolve into super-human or cyborgs that can work at 20x the speed we can now, why should be care if we're "human"?

Because a huge sector of our philosophy is hinged upon what it means to be human. There are more things to take into consideration than simple practical concerns.

[Anakso]

Depends what you mean.
I can see lots more machinery being invented to prolong life, but the idea of downloading your consciousness into a robot body just because it's considered better or something along those lines, I don't think we'll see that happen.

But things like pacemakers are already here.

[starlord]

made me think of this.


still, i think it might happen for a time. but it would require too much resources for it to be anything but expensive & rare. We're already running out as it is. biotechnology is the way to go.

[Lily Crowley]

I suppose it is a possibility.

Spoiler Ahoy!

Would be kinda nice to have artificial innards, like in that movie, I cannot for the life of me remember the name of it, but it was about a guy who was an agent for a company producing these organs, he was tasked with retrieving them from people that didn't manage to pay their debt in time (by killing them and taking the organs out), but then he himself was hurt and had to replace his heart (I think) and suddenly he was the one being hunted for not being able to pay for it.
Those kind of organs would be awesome.

[Masark]

Would be kinda nice to have artificial innards, like in that movie, I cannot for the life of me remember the name of it, but it was about a guy who was an agent for a company producing these organs, he was tasked with retrieving them from people that didn't manage to pay their debt in time (by killing them and taking the organs out), but then he himself was hurt and had to replace his heart (I think) and suddenly he was the one being hunted for not being able to pay for it.
Those kind of organs would be awesome.

I believe you're talking about Repo!.

The brain dwarves the capabilities of the smartest computer on this planet.

Depends on what exact capabilities you're comparing. The human brain operates in a massively parallel manner, but cycles at a really slow rate (about 100hz).

[Lashmoo]

A big ethical question about it was already brought up. How will people who can't afford the enhancements (but still want them) compete with those who can?

In a perfect world, your job would supply you with the necessary 'ware upgrades' needed for your job. That said, in reality, what jobs would use cybernetics extensively? Without knowing, it'd be hard to say where competition may lie. I truly don't think there'd be much more competition than there already is today.

My larger concern would be those who shift to the mindset of, "They're mostly machine, therefore they aren't Human." It can be far more damaging to society.

You do know why its a pump, right? its a matter of regulation different things in your body. Also if it was so much more efficient with a constant flow I´m sure we would have evolved that way by now.

Medicine has shown that, so far, we don't need the 'pump' motion and, by extension, a pulse at all. A pump is just how our bodies push the blood around. We're not very efficient creatures at all when you truly think about it. To steal some commentary from Neil deGrasse Tyson: Why do we eat, drink, breathe, and talk through the same opening? Other mammals, such as the Dolphin, don't do this. Yet, because we do, many humans die every year from choking. Moreover, the vast majority of the universe will flat out kill us. Evolution doesn't always make things 'perfect'.

Those of you saying that machine > biology are so far from the truth.

The brain dwarves the capabilities of the smartest computer on this planet.

In regards to Brain vs Computing power, that won't stay the same for very long. Our technological advances in regards to computing have been happening at an amazing rate the past 20 years. In theory, if it continues along the path (especially with graphene and other such new materials being developed), we could reach a point by about 2050 where computer power trumps brain power and can actually improve itself faster than we could. Some folks refer to it as the technological singularity.

[Marema]

I voted no for the simple fact humanity will either wipe itself out or create something that will do the job for us before any sort of true transhumanity will take place.

[Deleted]

Considering how Humans have always found ways to perfect their surroundings, and just now begun to perfect ourselves with plastic surgery, laser surgery and biological manipulation I'd expect us to accelerate our evolution at some point. Whether that is through mechanical or biological means I'm not certain, but we're expanding in both as of right now. It just seems unthinkable that we won't move past what we are now at some point, earlier this year I fixed my eyes with laser and it took 2 minutes, 2 minutes! That was indeed unthinkable just a few decades ago, now I don't need glasses any longer.

And this thread is a perfect example of why Human Revolution is such a good game, it poses a very interesting not too far-fetched question that everyone can have an opinion on.

[Beavis]

Those of you saying that machine > biology are so far from the truth.

The brain dwarves the capabilities of the smartest computer on this planet.

Can you calculate Pi to 10 trillion digits in your head with eidetic recall of every digit?

The human brain is very very good at some things and very very bad at others. Machines are very very bad at some things too, but they're getting smarter much much faster than we are.

[Deleted]

It is, like anything in the medical world, we will adapt to this. We already prolong our life by quite a bit, the next step will just be bigger.

[Ynna]

In a perfect world, your job would supply you with the necessary 'ware upgrades' needed for your job. That said, in reality, what jobs would use cybernetics extensively? Without knowing, it'd be hard to say where competition may lie. I truly don't think there'd be much more competition than there already is today.

My larger concern would be those who shift to the mindset of, "They're mostly machine, therefore they aren't Human." It can be far more damaging to society.

No job we currently have needs enhancements, but the moment they become available, you could use them for everything. I've only done stupid student jobs, and I can think of uses for enhanced body/brain in them.
And if employers provide the upgrades, it removes the choice of the upgrade somewhat. It's not unlikely that it'll be: "Get new eyes/arms/legs or you're fired."

As for your larger concern, I've read an article about a dude who has an Enhanced Reality Interface build into his skull and was assaulted for it. So yeah, that's going to be an issue.

[Coombs]

Almost all of the discussion and comments of this thread so far about evolution use incorrect mechanisms and aren't accurate. Some of the mechanical organs can be replaced but many of the organs and cells that catalyze and produce specific enzymes trump any machine even one on a larger scale. The organic musculature system is capable or producing more force in proportion to weight than a biotic arm could. There are too many variables and biologic processes that absolutely cripple what a machine is capable of. We can maybe replace a few more organs, not likely though, increase our visual range and hearing capabilities. Maybe computer integration with the brain, but most of what's being suggested goes from improbable to impossible. At least in the science of a majority cybernetic being.

[Lyriok]

Almost all of the discussion and comments of this thread so far about evolution use incorrect mechanisms and aren't accurate. Some of the mechanical organs can be replaced but many of the organs and cells that catalyze and produce specific enzymes trump any machine even one on a larger scale. The organic musculature system is capable or producing more force in proportion to weight than a biotic arm could. There are too many variables and biologic processes that absolutely cripple what a machine is capable of. We can maybe replace a few more organs, not likely though, increase our visual range and hearing capabilities. Maybe computer integration with the brain, but most of what's being suggested goes from improbable to impossible. At least in the science of a majority cybernetic being.

I like to believe nothing is impossible unless proven, we don't know yet if this is infact true. People from the 1400s would have never dreamed of cars or planes and the thought of such a machine probably would have been regarded to as impossible, only time will tell.

[Beavis]

Almost all of the discussion and comments of this thread so far about evolution use incorrect mechanisms and aren't accurate. Some of the mechanical organs can be replaced but many of the organs and cells that catalyze and produce specific enzymes trump any machine even one on a larger scale. The organic musculature system is capable or producing more force in proportion to weight than a biotic arm could. There are too many variables and biologic processes that absolutely cripple what a machine is capable of. We can maybe replace a few more organs, not likely though, increase our visual range and hearing capabilities. Maybe computer integration with the brain, but most of what's being suggested goes from improbable to impossible. At least in the science of a majority cybernetic being.

Uh huh....



I'm sure people thought computers would always be the size of farm equipment for a while too.

[Grummgug]

The more I think about it, the more I think the only possible outcome is a "Matrix-like" existence.

A matrix can offer humanity something nothing else can - the ability to break the laws of psychics (within the realm of the matrix).

People desire time travel. People desire god-like powers. People want to travel the universe in the blink of an eye. We can't do that in the real universe. Or, if its possible, its going to require massive amounts of energy or technology that's super advanced. But we CAN realistically achieve ALL of those things in a Matrix-like existence within 50 years. It won't be "real", but our brains won't be able to tell the difference.

A matrix will likely exist in 50 years. And in that matrix, we will be able to snap our fingers and blink to the other side of the universe. We could snap our fingers and create a planet. We can visit the past, or possible futures. Enjoy fine food every day. Always be young. What's not to like?

[Ynna]

Almost all of the discussion and comments of this thread so far about evolution use incorrect mechanisms and aren't accurate. Some of the mechanical organs can be replaced but many of the organs and cells that catalyze and produce specific enzymes trump any machine even one on a larger scale. The organic musculature system is capable or producing more force in proportion to weight than a biotic arm could. There are too many variables and biologic processes that absolutely cripple what a machine is capable of. We can maybe replace a few more organs, not likely though, increase our visual range and hearing capabilities. Maybe computer integration with the brain, but most of what's being suggested goes from improbable to impossible. At least in the science of a majority cybernetic being.

As I said before, it doesn't necessarily need to be all-mechanical. You could improve the biological processes, or you could go for a mix of techno- and biological stuff.

[Coombs]

Uh huh....



I'm sure people thought computers would always be the size of farm equipment for a while too.

A big difference between an exoskeleton of that size, and a biotic arm with the same proportions as a humans replacing the biological arm all together. When you shrink the proportions down so small to give full range of movement it either becomes too much of a burden for the rest of the body to carry or it's simply not as efficient as a biological system. In any case it is important not to replace so much bone that blood can no longer be produced. Erythrocytes die and are resupplied consistently.

---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 10:22 PM ----------

As I said before, it doesn't necessarily need to be all-mechanical. You could improve the biological processes, or you could go for a mix of techno- and biological stuff.

Definitely, but it would have to be more mechanical structures than ones that do a lot of the biological processes. I can see small improvements here and there.

[Deleted]

If humans can survive then yes, imo, we will be machines. Though there is a possibility that we will be using more advanced genetic manipulation to perfect our bodies and grant us new enchancements, unless we can actually use nano-tech on a more scifi level. Allthough if we reach that kind of technology, then i dont see why we would need to confine ourselves to this silly idea of a "steel body with no feelings". We could have a body that can go to space or the oceanic depths, yet be capable of feeling touching the same way we feel it now(If we choose to do so). We could "see" almost the entire electomagnetic spectrum, become any shape we wish and still retain modern human-like qualities(Empathy, love etc) if we choose to make it so. It entirely depends on what course society will want to take us. We could advance ourselves to be a faceless singularity to the same greedy bastards we are now, only immortal.