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  1. #21
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Unless Patchwerk magically turns up this expansion, ShS will always beat Preparation.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

    http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=MMOC-GenOT

  2. #22
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    It's generally accepted that 8+ targets are needed to go into full AoE rotation mode.
    Thanks for the info, i'll start update the thread.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that mut needs less target to go into full AoE, due to the insane proc chance and the poison damage (and dont forget VW).


    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    I'm skeptical about RvS acting like a DoT. The idea of DoT refreshing is that the 0.00s tick is added to the start of the refresh. RvS obviously doesn't tick, so what makes you think the last 2s of the debuff is added to the start of the refresh?
    I dont know why or how, but it just work. Go to the dummy and try it, you will see it will extend the debuff to about 18-19 secs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    You will always want to use a 5cp rupture, not because of VW, but because of Relentless Strikes. Assa is already greatly energy starved that extra 25 will be welcome.
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    About combat and gaming Anticipation. It's just that as long as you have plenty of time left on SnD you can just go to 5+5 cp in green,yellow insight and then double evis or evis and rupture straight up in yellow,red. The best is when you can sort of roll that 5 anticipation charge through the insight ranks,
    example:at 0 insight 5 cp to green, then 5 to yellow (10cp), evis (or rupture), 5 cp to red double evis etc...
    I never heard about this, but it seems like a dps gain. I need to try this by myself, it should be somewhat easy with a decent UI setup (old powerauras, i miss you so much :P)

    Quote Originally Posted by RemJay24 View Post
    For Sub, to make the transition between Combat/Sub easier, I use a dagger/fist. I simply swap the two weapons for the different specs depending on the fight.

    But are 2 daggers much better than Dagger in MH, fist/sword/axe in OH for Sub?
    I believe that Ambush uses a higher dmg multiplier if using daggers (not sure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Combat: RvS doesn't need to be at 100%, and it's a dps loss to clip it and aim to 100% uptime. If it's dropping, just pool energy until you have enough to put RvS up AND do a SS immediately after. Doing a RvS and then waiting for energy for SS is a dps loss.
    Another thing i didnt had in mind, I'll update the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Assassination: with current energy regen Anticipation drops a lot of its power - it's good for execute phase though. Waiting for an additional Mutilate if you are at 4CP results in less Envenom uptime. Maybe with more haste and better gear we can get a full use of the talent.
    What would be ideal on the last tier then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowtracks View Post
    You shouldn't open with Ambush for both Combat and Assassination. The damage isn't great and opening with RvS is superior (also starts building your Insights faster). For Assassination opening with Mutilate is the best thing to do to get your poisons running faster and have a chance for Blindside to proc.
    Is this true? My opener ambush is about 70k crit, while my RvS crits for like 25k or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Finally since i have some time, i'm finishing to fix my guide for MoP. All data is out, so it's going well.

    Also messingo with simcraft - while dps seems fine (max theoretic dmg is around 52k with my gear), as combat i'm going to wait around 147 seconds over a 450 seconds fight. It's the 32.6666666666666....% of the time spent waiting.

    "Rogues are fine".
    I tried to use simcraft a few times, and failed bad. Any suggestion?¡
    My Rogue

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    I like MoP now c:

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    Last time I checked (Spine heroic), raid mobs did not proc Deadly Momentum. Did they change this?
    Raid mobs DO, but there are are some "I don't die, I do fancy dying" mobs that don't trigger it (because you don't get a killing blow). The spirits on Gara'jal DO trigger DM, which means if you can afford the energy to pop a low recup going in off the totem, it should last the entire 30s you're inside + some extra for later.

  4. #24
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Anyone knows if it is still bad to use Rupture during Insight? Last time i read about it, it was a dps loss to use Rupture on Moderate or Deep Insight.
    My Rogue

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    I like MoP now c:

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Matutin View Post
    Is this true? My opener ambush is about 70k crit, while my RvS crits for like 25k or so.

    I tried to use simcraft a few times, and failed bad. Any suggestion?¡
    No, no, no. 1 CP + more damage > ~2s of 10% higher insight. Ambush is the opener you should be looking at. If you're boxed into using prep and your boss has some odd weaving tendencies on the pull (running to the side of the tank or something else odd in pathing) using RvS won't tank your damage, but ambush remains ideal.

    It would be really great to actually add a short segment in the guide about calculating EP weights with your gear from SimC. I can't open it from this comp to help add anything at the moment though.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 01:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Matutin View Post
    Anyone knows if it is still bad to use Rupture during Insight? Last time i read about it, it was a dps loss to use Rupture on Moderate or Deep Insight.
    It's a DPS increase. Rupture's damage is affected by insight at application, not insight at time of DoT tick as of 5.0.4, unless my memory has gone haywire.

  6. #26
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    No, no, no. 1 CP + more damage > ~2s of 10% higher insight. Ambush is the opener you should be looking at. If you're boxed into using prep and your boss has some odd weaving tendencies on the pull (running to the side of the tank or something else odd in pathing) using RvS won't tank your damage, but ambush remains ideal.
    Well that's why I was using Ambush, since I can use SnD just after it (and it will give me enought time to go to 5CP and use KS before it falls of). Also, if you trick the tank before, it will give him some extra aggro. IDK about you guys, but i've been having aggro problems on the first fight on MSV, mostly in the first 20 secs or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    It would be really great to actually add a short segment in the guide about calculating EP weights with your gear from SimC. I can't open it from this comp to help add anything at the moment though.[COLOR="red"]
    If I knew how to do it, i would do it :c
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post

    It's a DPS increase. Rupture's damage is affected by insight at application, not insight at time of DoT tick as of 5.0.4, unless my memory has gone haywire.
    ah, rupture no longer updates to the current insight? Also, is Rupture > Evis at Deep insight?
    My Rogue

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    I like MoP now c:

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    A few things are not 100% correct here, especially at the assasination part. You will always want to use a 5cp rupture, not because of VW, but because of Relentless Strikes. Assa is already greatly energy starved that extra 25 will be welcome.
    By letting your Rupture drop and waiting for 5CP before reapplying, you're losing more energy than RS would give. Sure, if you're at 3CP and have energy to Mut again before reapplying, go ahead. Losing a global of uptime is not bad. However, if you're at 1-2CP and low on energy, you should just reapply Rupture.

    Like I said, once you're experienced with the spec, you can use Anticipation to always land 5CP Ruptures. If you have 5-8s left on your Rupture but coming up on the energy cap, you can throw some extra builders in there, and continue building CPs and not energy capping while maintaining 100% Rupture uptime with 5CP. However, if you cannot do this you definitely should just Rupture. RS still has a 20% chance per CP to proc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    Opening with garrote is not a bad idea, as you will have VW up on the target while you get SnD and a 5cp rupture up.
    So, you think Garrote is the best choice. You're wrong. Let me break it down as so many others have.

    Garrote: 1 CP, terrible damage, suboptimal VW (3s tick vs Rupture's 2s)
    Ambush: 2-3 CP, best ability damage, 1 chance to proc poisons
    Mutilate: 2-3 CP, good ability damage, 2 chances to proc poisons, 30% chance to proc Blindside

    Mutilate clearly wins.
    Last edited by Squirl; 2012-10-10 at 07:14 PM.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'll need to verify it, I've noted that some mobs do not (usually the ones that spawn in abundance), but some definitely do.
    These mobs don't count as dead/killed mobs because you can't spend the CPs on them once dead as well. So probably not counting for that reason to deadly momentum.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Matutin View Post
    Another thing i didnt had in mind, I'll update the thread.
    What would be ideal on the last tier then?
    The optimal choice is still Anticipation - just it's less powerful than expected and anyway it's really good and can go full out during the execute phase. Anyway there are rumors spreading that using ST as combo builder is a dps gain; i don't know how much it is, but still it's worth a try (going sub this evening with ST just for fun).

    Quote Originally Posted by Matutin View Post
    Is this true? My opener ambush is about 70k crit, while my RvS crits for like 25k or so.
    Definitely true. Ambush damage is neglegible in the total performance, while opening with RvS or Mutilate bring additional advantages over the damage. The only spec that actually uses an opener is Sublety due to FW and SV.


    EDIT: i finished updating my WoWHead guide - if you want, you can check for data there. If you decide to use something, feel free to do so - just give credit for the work of other people. And please don't just copy/paste things

  10. #30
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    I've been focusing on my DK for the first reset so I'm kinda lost on rogue stuff.

    How is it better to start with Mutilate as Assa? Although Garrote does tick slower than Rupture, isn't it still better to have those VW ticks when you build up to SnD and a 5cp Rupture at the start of the fight? Or is it because Garrote lasts for so long, that by the time you would have your 5cp rupture up, you still have a long way to go on Garrote?

  11. #31
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The optimal choice is still Anticipation - just it's less powerful than expected and anyway it's really good and can go full out during the execute phase. Anyway there are rumors spreading that using ST as combo builder is a dps gain; i don't know how much it is, but still it's worth a try (going sub this evening with ST just for fun).
    If you're really good, I imagine it might be on par with normal mutilate on most of the movement fights, but on static fights, the loss of blindside procs makes me doubt it's use.

    For subtlety, I'm genuinely intrigued, I'd love for it to be better if only to give that spec some distinction. God I miss spec distinction!
    I am the lucid dream
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekloth View Post
    I've been focusing on my DK for the first reset so I'm kinda lost on rogue stuff.

    How is it better to start with Mutilate as Assa? Although Garrote does tick slower than Rupture, isn't it still better to have those VW ticks when you build up to SnD and a 5cp Rupture at the start of the fight? Or is it because Garrote lasts for so long, that by the time you would have your 5cp rupture up, you still have a long way to go on Garrote?
    Basically because of Shadow focus which translates into a free mutilate, which has a way higher dpe inthis case, plus the chance of blindside proc.

  13. #33
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The optimal choice is still Anticipation - just it's less powerful than expected and anyway it's really good and can go full out during the execute phase. Anyway there are rumors spreading that using ST as combo builder is a dps gain; i don't know how much it is, but still it's worth a try (going sub this evening with ST just for fun).
    I saw the rumors too, but im just hoping that those are not true :c

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Definitely true. Ambush damage is neglegible in the total performance, while opening with RvS or Mutilate bring additional advantages over the damage. The only spec that actually uses an opener is Sublety due to FW and SV.
    I am pretty sure about Mut, but not so sure about combat. If you open with Ambush you get between 30-70k and 2 CP, and if you open with RvS you get 25k max and 1 CP.
    As long as you use RvS right after SnD (the sequence would be: Ambush, SnD, RvS, SS...) it doesnt matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    EDIT: i finished updating my WoWHead guide - if you want, you can check for data there. If you decide to use something, feel free to do so - just give credit for the work of other people. And please don't just copy/paste things
    I'll check it as soon as I can, and if I copy something I'll put the link and the author name.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 03:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tekloth View Post
    I've been focusing on my DK for the first reset so I'm kinda lost on rogue stuff.

    How is it better to start with Mutilate as Assa? Although Garrote does tick slower than Rupture, isn't it still better to have those VW ticks when you build up to SnD and a 5cp Rupture at the start of the fight? Or is it because Garrote lasts for so long, that by the time you would have your 5cp rupture up, you still have a long way to go on Garrote?
    In order to get VW working you need to have a poison on the target. Mut gives you 2x chances to proc poisons, 30% to proc blindside and 2x(your crit chance) to give you an additional CP.
    My opener sequence goes like this: tricks, mut, SnD, get to 5cp, Vendetta (trinkets and racials), Rupture, Shadow Blades.
    My Rogue

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    I like MoP now c:

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    I'm skeptical about RvS acting like a DoT. The idea of DoT refreshing is that the 0.00s tick is added to the start of the refresh. RvS obviously doesn't tick, so what makes you think the last 2s of the debuff is added to the start of the refresh?
    Because you can see the debuff's duration when you reapply it? Unless you are suggesting that even though the debuff is present, there are 2 seconds where it isn't actually working?

    Refreshing isn't ideal anyway. Let it drop, pool, then apply a new one.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Because you can see the debuff's duration when you reapply it? Unless you are suggesting that even though the debuff is present, there are 2 seconds where it isn't actually working?

    Refreshing isn't ideal anyway. Let it drop, pool, then apply a new one.
    I didn't try it, I just thought it made no sense. The DoT refresh mechanic was created solely to make it less punishing to refresh before the last tick (since it's impossible to refresh after the last tick without losing uptime), and it makes no sense for it to be applied to RvS.

    If you say that the refreshed debuff is longer, then okay. It still makes no sense though.

  16. #36
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    I didn't try it, I just thought it made no sense. The DoT refresh mechanic was created solely to make it less punishing to refresh before the last tick (since it's impossible to refresh after the last tick without losing uptime), and it makes no sense for it to be applied to RvS.

    If you say that the refreshed debuff is longer, then okay. It still makes no sense though.
    I am 100% sure that this works. Now I know it is a bad idea, but it works.
    My Rogue

    Veni, vidi, vici.

    I like MoP now c:

  17. #37
    Why doesn't someone make this topic sticky? It is very useful and would save a lot of searching time for most of us.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Themaltas View Post
    Why doesn't someone make this topic sticky? It is very useful and would save a lot of searching time for most of us.
    It's bare-bones to fill a void in the Rogue world right now, but both EJ and Coldkill's guides have more information. And the existence of said void is debatable in itself.

    Hell, the majority of the information is the same as it was before MoP (thus making old guides sufficient), or is easy to work out for yourself. And the rest of the information is extremely vague, to the point where it may as well not be included at all.

    Overall I think the stat priority is the only truly useful part of it, but EJ does that better too so you may as well put a link to EJ in the sticky section.

    NB., I don't mean to take away from the effort that went into this, but a stickied guide demands more depth and, frankly, a higher quality. But things like "Beware of your Insight. You will be doing 30% more damage at Deep Insight" is not sticky material.

  19. #39
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Now I get why there is not a single guide on this forum.

    We should really put a thread with a bunch of links together, heck, if everyone just check EJ, why is this forum still alive?
    My Rogue

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    I like MoP now c:

  20. #40
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matutin View Post
    Now I get why there is not a single guide on this forum.

    We should really put a thread with a bunch of links together, heck, if everyone just check EJ, why is this forum still alive?
    Don't get brought down, keep working at it.
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