MM damage is fine, its just more demanding...

[Kaeth]

Kalgan wouldn't have Mages OP for an unlimited amount of time

True, when Kalgan was around warriors were his pet class. Greg just prefers mages.

[Tomathon23]

Any question that marks needs a buff you can see by taking a cursory glance at worldoflogs, excluding gara'jal because logs on him tend to be flaky and unreliable the only fight in MV right now that the top marks hunter in the world would've even ranked as BM with equivelant dps is will of the emperor where the top 2 marks would've scraped by into the 190-200 range. Also more proof that its not just idiots that play marks that wouldn't do well as BM/sv either is the top marks dps for feng/spirit kings/elegon (michas) is 2nd as BM on will of the emperor.

Common sense would also kind of lead you to this conclusion since 1-steady shot hits like a wet noodle vs cobra shot 2-chimera shot also hits like a wet noodle, if you check the top log for SV/BM/Marks on feng since it's a fairly patchwerkish fight kill command/explosive shot are on a 6 second cooldown and hit for an average of 51.5k/55.5k respectively while chimera shot on a 9 second CD comes in at an average of 48k. So essentially in regards to the core shot for each class BM gets 8583 dps with kill command, survival gets 9250 from explosive shot, and marks gets 5333. Which mind you if you added the dps to chimera shot to make it equal to those 2 the top marks on feng would still be a solid 12k behind the top BM/survival hunters.

Just from a mark's hunter PoV some changes that might help are buff chimera shot's damage to be equal to KC/ES, buff steady shot to be like 80% as strong as cobra instead of 40%, and make careful aim 80%+ again, since with everyone popping CDs at the start the first 10% goes by as quick as the next 20% its ridiculous.

[Rocknrule]

Any question that marks needs a buff you can see by taking a cursory glance at worldoflogs, excluding gara'jal because logs on him tend to be flaky and unreliable the only fight in MV right now that the top marks hunter in the world would've even ranked as BM with equivelant dps is will of the emperor where the top 2 marks would've scraped by into the 190-200 range. Also more proof that its not just idiots that play marks that wouldn't do well as BM/sv either is the top marks dps for feng/spirit kings/elegon (michas) is 2nd as BM on will of the emperor.

Common sense would also kind of lead you to this conclusion since 1-steady shot hits like a wet noodle vs cobra shot 2-chimera shot also hits like a wet noodle, if you check the top log for SV/BM/Marks on feng since it's a fairly patchwerkish fight kill command/explosive shot are on a 6 second cooldown and hit for an average of 51.5k/55.5k respectively while chimera shot on a 9 second CD comes in at an average of 48k. So essentially in regards to the core shot for each class BM gets 8583 dps with kill command, survival gets 9250 from explosive shot, and marks gets 5333. Which mind you if you added the dps to chimera shot to make it equal to those 2 the top marks on feng would still be a solid 12k behind the top BM/survival hunters.

Just from a mark's hunter PoV some changes that might help are buff chimera shot's damage to be equal to KC/ES, buff steady shot to be like 80% as strong as cobra instead of 40%, and make careful aim 80%+ again, since with everyone popping CDs at the start the first 10% goes by as quick as the next 20% its ridiculous.

I can agree with all of this. Especially the part about Careful Aim, it is by far one of the most retarded things Blizzard has ever thought up (well maybe not). I would prefer some sort of Armor Penetration talent in its place, like maybe when you crit with Aimed shot all of your attacks bypass 100% armor (50% in pvp) basically the same as the warriors but a proc.

[Deleted]

GC is indeed a man with strange publications. Tho I do think he made this game better by far. He is balancing the game better then a lot of other games do. It is not optimal, but better than.

On topic. I really miss the viability and smooth rotation MM had in cataclysm. It felt natural to me in some way.

The BM rotation - especially at start feels super clunky and there are too many things to take in consideration. I'm a more then decent hunter and I have trouble mastering it. I cannot immagine how a new player will get their heads above water in all these abilities (most are even macro'd in some way)

[Duito]

I'm SV I kill MM, and BM in pvp and on the charts...so I don't care

[Rocknrule]

I'm SV I kill MM, and BM in pvp and on the charts...so I don't care

No you don't.

[Kurves]

Hunter's are completely screwed other than 30-50s of burst dps.

[eschatological]

I thought MM in Cata was very smooth and rhythmic too. With all the CDs from level 75 and 90 tiers though, now, I feel that would be seriously disrupted, even though I haven't played MM at all this xpac.

[Speedlance]

The way some people on the forums think is just depressing.

Agree with you, they think GW is working alone on balancing.

[jinsu]

MM hunter here, the rotation feels very awkward at the moment. At the start of the fight you have so many cooldowns to use before you can even get into a rotation where you can support aimed shot for CA by the time you actually get to that point the CA phase is over. Some fights it might even be more beneficial to ignore dire beast, glaive toss etc till after CA phase because it would allow you more aimed shots.

I've ran with ToTH for aoe in heroics and such and with that I feel like I have to much focus and end up spamming arcane shot and only using 2 ss to maintain steady forcus. Thus I get less free aimed shot procs, on the other hand without ToTH I feel like I am always focus starved and barely have enough focus for any arcane shots. It is a weird position right now and hopefully they will provide something to make it more fluid.

[Moshots]

You guys do realize MM has always scaled off weapon dmg more than any other hunter? Maybe what he is looking at is with raid gear. Idk dont play my hunter this tier but during cata I remember playing MM for the first month of a tier if I got a raid bow because the scaling off it was 3x better for MM than any other spec.

[Tomathon23]

if you go to raidbots dpsbot, currently on worldoflogs parses MM hunters are bottom 2 dps classes on every fight in MV, and typically only doing about 60-70% of the damage of SV/BM.

[Garkanh]

i actualy do 2k more dps on dummy's as MM than i do as BM. (from 53k as BM to 55k as MM), but that requires a fight where i don't move at all, so i don't use it in raid or pvp.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

yeah, the dummy with over 90% hp for full careful aim uptime? I wouldn rely on that ^^

[lolo855]

Sigh when will people understand that MM vs a target dummy is wrong !

Carefull Aim ftw !

Now try that on something that isn't at 100% hp all the time

[tibben]

I can admit it's probably a *little* overpowered, but Blizzard doesn't understand the terms "slight nerf" or even "moderate nerf". If somethings overpowered, 95% of the time it gets smashed into the oblivion of uselessness.

This is all too true. Remember when BM was somewhat OP at the start of WotLK? Did they nerf it a little? No. They nerfed it so hard no serious players played BM spec for the next 3 years. Sure a few people dabbled with it in Cataclysm, but they weren't doing that on raid progression. I foresee MM getting a slight overhaul and BM getting nerfed to the point where it is completely unplayable unless you simply enjoy being dead last in raid DPS and just plain dead in PvP.

[Dafft]

A problem with marks I find is aimed shot, currently you require a lot of haste to bring to an acceptable cast time, leaving you with Aimed! procs for most of the time, though once 4 set becomes available that 10% haste will help