Where to find accurate Stat (EP) Weights?

[Vinho]

I know it's still early on in the expansion but Do we have any accurate numbers crunched for EP weights?

The EP Stat weights here @ EJ I think are incorrect (unless someone can prove otherwise) because the post was made a day before the expansion went live and even states that the current scripts could need optimization which would sway the data.

Simcraft.org Is showing me, for my character specifically the following weights:


Shadowcraft Hasn't been updated yet, is still set to the 4.3 Engine....

And Askmrrobot.com... is showing me these weights:


I'm just a lost rogue. I'm trying to understand what I should be Gemming +/ Enchanting.. whether Primary stats are still valued much higher than Secondary stats or not...

If Elitist Jerks is correct; which it may or may not be... 320 Haste (523) > 160 Agility (443) = Gem for Haste
If all others are correct; specifically looking @ Simcraft... 320 Haste (435) < 160 Agility (512) = Gem for Agi

If anyone can shed some light on this situation I'd really appreciate it.


Edit: I'm most drawn to SimulationCraft because of all other simulations I've run, this one is the most accurate down to about +/- 2k DPS

[eijin]

Elitistjerks' numbers is for BiS T14 from what ive gathered, so i would lean closer to simulationcraft.

Question though, are you really well geared? agi is still over twice haste for me (meaning gem agi), but in better gear its supposed to move in favor of haste.

[Vinho]

I don't consider 469 to be well geared- so I feel I'm still in the zone that favours Agi (if that's how it works?)

[eijin]

Yeah 469 isnt near as high as i was expecting. when i was 470 i got:
agi: 3.28
crit: 1.03
haste: 1.34
hit: 2.22
Mastery: 1.07
Expertise: 2.16
Ap: 1.25

Because my numbers are higher overall than yours im guessing i have better weapons.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...s/Eijin/simple
The trinkets are both new. I need to run a new simulation.

[Synexlol]

Remember that EP Values are related to EJ and associated projects, not Simcraft or anything else.

EP values are based on Attack Power, where 1 AP = 1 EP. Obviously this means that the EP weights you see on Elitist Jerks can't be directly compared to the figures that SimulationCraft or AskMrRobot gives you.

I'd advise asking EJ, to get an idea of how accurate their values are right now since no updated engine has been released. Though I'd imagine that the 'sway' mentioned would be a couple percent at very most, so probably not enough to change the result in gemming priority.

[eijin]

True, EP isnt the best term to be using universally. Simulationcraft i believe simply works off DPS. a point of static, up 100% of the time agi will raise my DPS by 3.28. Technically with AP being at 1.25 then i could multiply the EP from EJ by 1.25 and get sim craft numbers?

Regardless, even looking at temperature in 3 different areas in celsius then again in fahrenheit areas with higher temperature will still be higher in either. It should still be the same in this situation, higher stat priorities will be higher.

[Pathal]

EP just means equivalence point. On EJ, if we don't explicitly state what we're normalizing too, it's implied to be normalized to 1 AP. SimC doesn't normalize the values (or to think of it another way, they normalize DPS gains to 1 DPS, which produces the same value).

We can normalize EP weights to anything we want in Shadowcraft, you can set the normalization to 'dps' if you want.

[Synexlol]

EP just means equivalence point. On EJ, if we don't explicitly state what we're normalizing too, it's implied to be normalized to 1 AP. SimC doesn't normalize the values (or to think of it another way, they normalize DPS gains to 1 DPS, which produces the same value).

We can normalize EP weights to anything we want in Shadowcraft, you can set the normalization to 'dps' if you want.

Well I meant that the values in the guides are normalized to AP. EP is pretty much synonymous with Elitist Jerks at this point (right?), so I wanted to make sure people understood that EJ's values are normalized to AP while Simcraft's values aren't.

[Pathal]

I suppose. But the idea of EP is is just figuring out how much a stat is worth compared to something else. Scale factors are EP's, but strictly the EP of stat -> DPS.

I guess we're the only ones who really call it that though. Us and ShadowPanther.

[Verain]

Edit: FOR MUTILATE
EJ has Str above Mastery, raising the question of glove enchant. However, as has been stated, I'm pretty sure that's for a full epic rogue there.

[Coldkil]

What doest Str give to any rogue?

It doesn't give AP nor crit - maybe i'm missing something here.

[eijin]

What doest Str give to any rogue?

It doesn't give AP nor crit - maybe i'm missing something here.

Still gives attack power, but it always seems to be ranked higher than AP, so im guessing it scales with both buffs (5% stats and 10% ap)

so 100 str would be 115 ap, where as 100 ap is just 110 ap.

[Vinho]

I guess i'm going to continue referring to my simcraft for stat weights / scaling factors (even though they're not directly = EP Weights @ EJ)
At least until shadowcraft is back up and running & being called accurate (If the person who made it is even going to continue updating)

[Deleted]

Pretty sure strength giving attack power has been removed somewhere at the end of Wrath or start of Cataclysm. I'm not sure if they reverted that change back in MoP, but I don't see why they would.

I get whispers every so often in-game of people asking me questions and this exact same question was asked about a week ago. This person asked if the strength glove enchant would be better compared to a mastery enchant as Assassination. I explained the exact same thing, and then she said she wanted to try enchanting her glove with strength to see if it gave her any attack power. So she did, and a few seconds later whispered ''You were right, the strength enchant didn't add anything at all''.

I still didn't try this myself so I can't confirm it, but I specifically remember a patch note about the removal of attack power from strength for Rogues and Ferals somewhere at the end of wrath.

[Rory]

Shadowcraft is not being updated from what I understand. I would recommend simcraft, although chardev import is broken for rogues ATM and won't be fixed until next release. Also, I have never in the time playing wow seen any secondary stat > primary + secondary when it comes to gemming. So you gem delicate in red, adept/deft in orange and whatever in blue. Reforging is where the weights matter and it appears mr robot and reforge lite are pretty similar. I'd verify with simcraft still, but those appear to be pretty good right now.

[eijin]

I still didn't try this myself so I can't confirm it, but I specifically remember a patch note about the removal of attack power from strength for Rogues and Ferals somewhere at the end of wrath.

Haven't tested it myself, so i can't say "you're wrong" or anything. I thought they were going to make str useless for rogues, however mousing over your str tooltip still shows an increase to your attack power (AFTER the base str). Of course, It wouldn't be the first tooltip bug.

Shadowcraft is not being updated from what I understand. I would recommend simcraft, although chardev import is broken for rogues ATM and won't be fixed until next release. Also, I have never in the time playing wow seen any secondary stat > primary + secondary when it comes to gemming. So you gem delicate in red, adept/deft in orange and whatever in blue. Reforging is where the weights matter and it appears mr robot and reforge lite are pretty similar. I'd verify with simcraft still, but those appear to be pretty good right now.

I think this is the first time that you literally get -twice- the secondary stat as you do the primary stat when gemming.

[Vinho]

I think this is the first time that you literally get -twice- the secondary stat as you do the primary stat when gemming.

With the exception of the Serpent's Eye JC Gems of course, they're only increased by 50% (though I don't know why not... wish they'd allow 2x ^_^)

The Agi/Str/Int Gems are 160x2 = 320
Haste/ Exp/ Other Secondary stats are 320*1.5 = 480

[eijin]

Good point, yeah i'd definitely go primary for those in any situation. With my latest simcraft results I'm still showing agi is over twice haste personally.

[Deleted]

I apologize for going off-topic but I feel this is important enough to warrant an extra post.

Haven't tested it myself, so i can't say "you're wrong" or anything. I thought they were going to make str useless for rogues, however mousing over your str tooltip still shows an increase to your attack power (AFTER the base str). Of course, It wouldn't be the first tooltip bug.

You are correct on the tooltip, and on top of that I just tried it in-game with the strength enchant. It turns out I was simply wrong, the 170 strength enchant gave me 177 attack power.

Long story short, ignore my previous post because I was wrong. Although I'm 100% sure they did remove it somewhere in Wrath, assuming it was in the Cataclysm pre-patch.

[Deleted]

Long story short, ignore my previous post because I was wrong. Although I'm 100% sure they did remove it somewhere in Wrath, assuming it was in the Cataclysm pre-patch.

I am pretty sure that nothing changed about strength. The big change you might be reffering to is that they changed agility to give 2 points of AP instead of just one. Suddenly, the value of primary stat (not just for rogues, it works the other way around for plate melee as well) skyrocketed and we could stop caring - but strength itself did not actually change for us. And it was all pretty simple, until now - ratings dropping below attack power, thats somewhat new.