Shadow AOE

[chazus]

So I know devs already said Shadow AOE was already lacking, I'm fine with that (or at least 'get it'). The question remains, how do we maximize what we have?

Is it...

SWP+VT on everything?
SWP on everything + MS?
VT on everything + MS?
MS when there are X number of targets?
SWP on everything and then normal single target on main target?

Is there a threshold where multidotting (which devs keep reminding us is what they 'want') where it becomes a dps loss over single target?

What about just 2-3 mobs? Single target, or multidot? All?

[Rhyseh]

I would be interested to see some actively raiding Spriest weigh in their opinions here.

[Optionx]

im no pro but i put VT,SWP on everything and then use MS would love to see some opinions also.

[Deleted]

Ignoring sear for now (since I really don't know the maths involved). You're going to get best DPS from getting as many SW: Ps out as possible. VT is less damage per cast. However, without VTs you'll go oom. I think it really depends on how many mobs are involved. 4-6 I'd probably spam arund SW: Ps then follow up with VTs. If I saw my mana dropping I'd start incorporating more VTs to keep the mana up.

I'd be interested to know how many targets makes mind sear better than spamming SW: P

[chazus]

I've also noticed that not only does mind sear suck, but when there are TOO many mobs, it gets capped, and sucks on the top end as well.

[UunaPriest]

Personally I've done well throwing pain on as many as possible(with Divine Insight talented), throw VT on one or two for mana, then use halo/divine/cascade, use any MB procs as they come, refresh pain.
I haven't bothered to sim it yet, but my thought is to essentially get as many MB procs as possible. I only use sear in between.

My problem with the philosophy of DOTing to AoE is that it takes SO LONG to get any AoE damage rolling that way, and generally in raiding aoe-able things on boss fights need to die very fast, and so having ramp-up for aoe does not put shadow in a very good position to contribute to AoE... even if more sustained aoe were to be competitive.

A reasonable solution might be something like buffing Mind Sear's damage based on how many targets with SWP on them it hits or something of that nature.

[Crudelitas]

i guess they buffed its damage by 25% on a hotfix.

[Aceso Jenkins]

I'd be interested to know how many targets makes mind sear better than spamming SW: P

Pretty much this - I can't honestly say that I've used MS at all, with great results, since the later portion of Dragon Soul.

In a raiding environment assuming 5-6 targets that are at least 2-million+ HP: I generally open with Halo, if it's feasible, MB a target or 3DP if it's up, and then put two VT and light the rest with SW: P. I do Mind Flay for filler as the cost of casting and interrupting a Mind Sear is not worth it when Mind Spikes proc. Cast MB on CD, interrupting Mind Flay after a tick and giving a higher priority than MS procs. If a target gets low, SW: Dx2 to get Twist of Fate buff and build orb stacks.

Rinse and repeat.

[Gande]

It really depends on the situation.

The most important things are how long will the adds be up and how many adds?

In a situation like heroic feng, a single sw: p and then searing was what i was doing, with mind blasts and nukes on the last one thats up (i'll have to remath it since the buff).

Generally speaking, sw: p everything(vampiric touch a few if its really mana intensive), mind blasting when instant, devouring plague when at 3,instant mind spiking, and sear when they're closer to death and won't be up for long.

Thats my 2 cents anyways.

[Guschigginz]

SWP+VT on everything?
SWP on everything + MS?
VT on everything + MS?
MS when there are X number of targets?
SWP on everything and then normal single target on main target?

Is there a threshold where multidotting (which devs keep reminding us is what they 'want') where it becomes a dps loss over single target?

What about just 2-3 mobs? Single target, or multidot? All?

Double dot stone guard (focus on keeping dots on the two active guys up).

Halo then MS adds on feng.

VT/SWP totems on garajal, SWP adds in spirit phase.

Double dot adds/arrows on spirit kings.

Double dot adds on elegon.

SWP everything on emperor with VT mixed in for mana.

[Meanwal]

With 2-3 targets, apply Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch to all targets and continue with the single target rotation. With 4+ targets, channel Mind Sear on one of the targets (or the tank if they're in range of the mobs).

I also pop MB on CD when it comes up.

[Aica]

Mind Sear is better than MF at 3 targets.
Mind Sear is better than SoD MSp procs at 5 targets.
Mind Sear is better than VT at 6 targets (but you may have to cast it anyway for mana: one VT for every two SW:Ps to remain mana neutral).
Mind Sear is better than 3*MB+DP at 7 targets.
Mind Sear is better than SW:P at 10 targets, until 4 piece.

This is all assuming the targets will live through the entire duration of any of these spells. Once durations start getting clipped, the effectiveness of dots drops dramatically.

[Annesh]

How I AoE in current content
2-4 targets: SWP/VT on everything. Between DP3 when it comes up and MB/MS procs you don't get enough time for any filler.
4-8 targets: SWP on everything, VT on as many as you feel you have time for.
9+ targets: Sear.

Halo on CD in all cases.

How I feel about Shadow AoE in current content

It's stupid. The AoE mechanics of every other class I've played in the last year has either had AoE that's no more complex than Mind Sear (shooting down their argument why Sear should be crap), or had some very interesting - and more importantly, well-designed, well thought-out, intuitive AoE mechanics. Shadow's new "intended" AoE mechanics feel clunky.

Enhance: Magma Totem, Flame Shock, Lava Lash to spread it, Fire Nova on CD, rinse/repeat.

Mage: Not sure how they work now in MoP but in Cata, Fire had some amazing AoE mechanics. Living Bomb, Pyro dot when possible, Ignite, Impact to spread, watch the numbers. Can throw Combust in before the Impact for hilarity. Sure, it relies on RNG more than most specs, but that just means as many stupidly high numbers as stupidly low.

Rogue: Blade Flurry for two targets, spam FoK for more.

Paladin: Consecrate, Divine Storm on CD, etc. (again, not sure how it works after MoP)

Their strategy for Shadowpriests feels a little insulting, even. It's like they got so fed up with our beloved multidotting that they threw up their hands and said, "FINE, that's how you AoE now!"

Except that's never been how we handle "true" AoE - situations where either a) there are way too many mobs to feasibly multi-dot, or b) they die too quickly for dots to be a viable use of time.

I actually enjoy multidotting, it's one of the things I love about the spec, and over the years I've become very good at it. The thing I like about it is it's mechanically challenging, you have to know what you're doing five to ten seconds before you do it, but in exchange for that greater demand I tend to see greater numbers. I like that on those fights that permit that kind of playstyle, I'm usually top DPS, and I'm more than fine that I'm nothing special on single-target fights to make up for it.

But in a world where I have to multi-dot just to stay competitive with classes with far less challenging AoE rotations, I start to lose interest. I don't get anything for being such a tryharder. I'm still "just okay."

I do see where they're coming from with their opinion about Mind Sear, though. I think they're wrong (partly because other specs have AoE that's just as boring/spam-one-buttony), but I actually wouldn't mind a more complex "pure" AoE rotation. However, I do think they really need to rethink their design for the spec's AoE.

Spreading dots seems to be pretty popular, and it's something I've wanted since locks got it way back in ICC (I think...). Why can't we get something like that? Mind Sear can be as crappy as they want it to be, if I have some way to spread SWP with one GCD.

How about: Devouring Plague also spreads SWP to all targets in X yards. With something like this, they could actually nerf Mind Sear and most Spriests would be too busy jizzing on their keyboards to notice. I'm not even sure it would be OP, in a world where SWP doesn't even hit that hard. Of course, then they would need to rethink Divine Insight, and most of the rest of their crappy MoP model for the spec.

Sigh, I can dream. A nerd can only dream.

[Deleted]

This is all assuming the targets will live through the entire duration of any of these spells. Once durations start getting clipped, the effectiveness of dots drops dramatically.

Very true, low HP trash/mobs just die too fast.

Anyways my AoE "rotation" dont change that much depending on the number of targets, it always go into that i want dots on 3 targets and then just a normal MB MF Halo(if safe to use) DP combo if there are more then 3 targets the only change is that MF gets replaced by MS.

Also once you get to that lovely 8085haste mark and can start to focus on Int and other stats (crit, mastery) things start to get fun.
plz currect me if im wrong be it would seem that SP are once again very gear depending, i mean if you look at the dmg difference going from lvling blues to HC blues to raid gear the output just go up dramaticly.

[Autofollow]

Halo on CD in all cases.

I'm surprised this was the only person that mentioned HALO on CD.
Most people got the VT and SWP part down with multidots but Halo is huge.

I'm reserving my full judgement for AOE dmg until I am fully geared. Yes it's low now but it keeps climbing with gear so I'm suspecting a scaling issue.

Just noticed the post about mine mentioned Halo. Also, make sure you get the proper range when using it. 25 yards really does make the difference.

[Nihilostromrage]

Halo is the shiznit mixed with multi dotting. Mind sear is now as useless as a bag of hammers but you wait.. they will surely try to make things easier for the key spammer out there in a coming patch since its far too hard for most people to multi dot a mob, something any shadow priest worth his salt has been doing for a long time.

[Kurohoshi]

Am I the only person who doesn't consider multi-DOTing to be AOE? Yes it is what you have to do on a pull with multiple mobs but by definition it isn't AOE.

[UunaPriest]

I'm surprised this was the only person that mentioned HALO on CD.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote then? ^_^

---------- Post added 2012-10-16 at 02:30 PM ----------

Am I the only person who doesn't consider multi-DOTing to be AOE? Yes it is what you have to do on a pull with multiple mobs but by definition it isn't AOE.

I agree. Blizzard's thinking on this is poor at best. I'm fine requiring DOTs also, but even with the 25% mind sear buff it just doesn't seem worth casting in most situations.

I like the idea of a DOT spreader, but they'll say "no that's what Fire mages do".

[Kurohoshi]

I like the idea of a DOT spreader, but they'll say "no that's what Fire mages do".

And DKs and Warlocks.........

[Rhyseh]

And DKs and Warlocks.........

and Warriors and Shamans........