Fun with Level 90 Talents?

[Imnick]

If I had to suggest an alternative to our current talents then a choice of execute spells would be nice, I don't want anything like a pet or static buff to our damage that simply requires a button press before the fight starts (or no presses at all), I want something that would interrupt or augment a mage's rotation in the same way that these talents do.
They are designed to limit mage mobility and add extra depth to the class, any replacement would have to do the same.

[scuac]

Let me add to this, I was playing Arcane in Cata, and there we had a burn phase and a conserve phase to play with, and some people thougt that was a fun dynamic. Now in MoP I am playing Frost with Invocation, I just think of it as having a 40s burn phase and ~5s conserve phase, really not that different.

[Deleted]

I think a little like Imnick. These talent are good in some way: they improve mage game-play. It's also true that we lack some execute spell (like Deep freeze in early cata, before mastery nerf).

If it's true that Arcane need more button to push. But I think that Frost don't need it (I haven't found space on my keyboard for Water Jet's) and Fire is between this 2.
All 3 talents had more or less to the gameplay (less for RoP) but they feel punishing, not rewarding. They fail in this part.

[LocNess]

Still failing to see how they incorporate "skill" into our play style. All it is is keeping the uptime very high and finding good times to get your movement stopped without dying. That just isn't skill to me. It is tedious and not fun. I like the idea of the talents, but now how they are implemented. I would rather just buff all our damage back to normal, then make it "The next evocate you complete, you gain 25% damage increase for 30 seconds" - 3min CD or something of that matter. CD's are a lot more skill to me to use efficiently then managing a buff.

[Imnick]

If it's true that Arcane need more button to push. But I think that Frost don't need it (I haven't found space on my keyboard for Water Jet's) and Fire is between this 2.

As far as I can tell you'll always use Freeze while questing or in PvP and in PvE you will never use both Freeze and Water Jet, so you can just swap them around on your bars when you have a chance to cleave (Freeze) or when it is purely single target (Water Jet).

Still failing to see how they incorporate "skill" into our play style. All it is is keeping the uptime very high and finding good times to get your movement stopped without dying. That just isn't skill to me. It is tedious and not fun. I like the idea of the talents, but now how they are implemented. I would rather just buff all our damage back to normal, then make it "The next evocate you complete, you gain 25% damage increase for 30 seconds" - 3min CD or something of that matter. CD's are a lot more skill to me to use efficiently then managing a buff.

They incorporate skill into our playstyle because if finding good times to get your movement stopped without dying was easy there wouldn't be so many complaints about it
CDs are far from "skill", unless they are implemented like Alter Time (I love the idea of Alter Time as a DPS cooldown).
They are just a button you hit every time it is up and increase your damage, there is no further thought involved past "will I be able to use this again during heroism" or "is the boss about to turn invincible".

Invocation is the closest to a button you just hit off cooldown but if you merely do that then you are likely to take heavy raid damage and your healers will hate you. You also need to take into account everything you would with a regular cooldown.
Find times like Feng's 75% miss rate phase and invocate to your heart's content (though at least on Feng normal I've found the other two talents can be very effective).

[Deleted]

Sure, i've got the hang these talents and are now part of my rotation and tbh i don't even think about them. The timer tells me when to cast and my knowledge tells me how to use them.
But I don't look forward to 90's, however they are satisfying, in the end. It's like working extra hours at work for a monthly bonus or going to bed early and appreciating it in the morning. This is how these talents make me feel.
And Imnick, you're obviously smarter than everyone else that's why maybe you enjoy frying your brain to do more dps. These are min/max talents imo most mages will not be able to use these talents to their max and enjoy the game.

So in reality there is no fun in these talents.

[Imnick]

I've already said that I do not judge others based on their dislike of talents that I am fine with, this is a matter of personal taste not of objective truth.
I would appreciate that you take the same attitude rather than resorting to petty judgements and insults.

[mipper]

Thanks for all the great feedback!! I agree that Alter Time is a really interesting DPS cooldown. Especially when actively managing my combustions.

I also liked comparing invocation to arcane with a conserve and burn phase -- I enjoyed that playstyle in cata, so perhaps i'll give that another go.

Finally, I also have to agree on the skill front, lining up cooldowns requires less skill than effectively planning where to place runes of power, when to invocate, or when to pop incanter's ward.

For some, fun is when you have to plan movement out ahead of time and execute it perfectly. For others, we'd like to focus more on the mechanics of an encounter and less about planning where I'm going to specifically stand during each minute of a fight. Would be nice if they kept options to keep everyone happy -- but I don't think it's possible bc everyone would just pick the path of least resistance..

[zomgDPS]

I also liked comparing invocation to arcane with a conserve and burn phase -- I enjoyed that playstyle in cata, so perhaps i'll give that another go.

This has been one of the greatest misconceptions about Arcane during MoP so far. Funnily enough, it is being propogated, chiefly, by Lhivera, who hasn't even stepped foot in a raid, let alone ever played the Arcane spec.

The truth, as proved using math by Kavan on the Elitist jerks forums (in this thread)

Arcane no longer has a burn phase, even with Invocation.


You obviously still use invocation, but that's for the buff. Arcane now never burns down like it did in the past, you are perpetually in a conserve phase with all three talents. In fact, with IW, you actually should never use Evocation at all.

(n.b. a very interesting side point. The reason Arcane has lost its 'burn-conserve' gameplay as laid out by Kavan in that thread is due to the MPS of the 6 stack change. Lo and behold, that is exactly what I have been saying for over 6 months now!)


The worst part is that even after Lhivera was proved wrong, he still kept going and spreading these falsehoods. Obviously, no one questioned him because of his MvP status (which is another reason people are petitioning to strip him of it. It is too easy to misinform people as an MvP).

I am almost certain that one of the reason that people are under performing as Arcane right now is because they are using "Lhivera's method" to play the spec. For example, the spell priority list he is using (and telling people to use) for Simcraft has also been proven to be sub-optimal, but no one wants to use the higher performing spell priority list simply because it isn't "blessed by Lhivera".

Silly really. But what can you do.

Idiots will always abound.

[mipper]

Arcane no longer has a burn phase, even with Invocation.

Oh I know arcane no longer has a burn phase. I should been more clear in my statement. Since arcane is broken I was assuming no one really specs into that - which is not the best thing to assume.

I liked the comparison of using the invocation talent with the most viable specs (fire/frost) in MoP to the former conserve and burn that was present for Arcane in Cata.

[zomgDPS]

Oh I know arcane no longer has a burn phase. I should been more clear in my statement. Since arcane is broken I was assuming no one really specs into that - which is not the best thing to assume.

I don't know why you think it is a bad assumption. Its actually not an assumption at all. Arcane is a dead spec.

We have enough data to prove that statement. As shown here:

For 25 mans


For 10 mans


Take note, this is over ALL parses (i.e. not just top 100). Also take note, in 25 mans, over 25,000+ people are playing fire mages. You know how many are playing Arcane? 700 (yes, thats seven hundred).

Arcane is beyond broken. The only person who is saying it isn't, is Lhivera. He believes the spec is perfectly fine and that the entire thing is a L2play issue.

I liked the comparison of using the invocation talent with the most viable specs (fire/frost) in MoP to the former conserve and burn that was present for Arcane in Cata.

I understand what you are saying, but the comparison is not viable. Mana is not an issue for Fire or Frost, hence, there is no concept of burn and conserve for those specs. The use of Invocation does not alter the rotation of either spec.

Burn and conserve, as a DPS concept itself, no longer exists in the mage class. Which is unfortunate, because it was exactly that concept that made the Arcane mage an unique casting experience among all caster specs in the game.

It is curious to note, that every single ex-Arcanist when asked why they don't play the spec any more, lists the loss of this gameplay as one of the (many) reasons. The other being, that the entire spec now is completely static and mind numbingly boring to play (esp since you cannot burst anymore, which used to be Arcane's strengths but was then stripped and given to Frost since the MvP QQed).

[mipper]

I understand what you are saying, but the comparison is not viable. Mana is not an issue for Fire or Frost, hence, there is no concept of burn and conserve for those specs. The use of Invocation does not alter the rotation of either spec.

Burn and conserve, as a DPS concept itself, no longer exists in the mage class. Which is unfortunate, because it was exactly that concept that made the Arcane mage an unique casting experience among all caster specs in the game.

Preaching to the choir, my friend. I do miss the old arcane play style as it was unique and I found it entertaining. This is the closest I can get to recreating that feeling with the current state of affairs and I'm looking for ways to enjoy playing on my mage again.

[Jakmax]

I wish I had some positive feedback for you, because I know exactly what you're saying. I complained about this to guildies, and on the forums, and was basically told to wait and use it myself before I flipped out. I waited, and I used them. They were just as boring and stupid to use as I knew they would be. I want so badly to be able to enjoy playing the character I've played for years, but these 90 talents take all the fun out of it for me.

The best I can give you as far as positive feedback, is that mechanically IW isn't half bad. It's not competitive, the absorb is less than an auto attack, and the passive bonus is borderline useless, but it feels like a mage mechanic. Hit me? Ok. KABOOM! Too bad it shares a animation with our 8 year old mana shield animation.

As far as suggestions for improving them go, get rid of them. That's probably my rage talking, because thinking about those talents makes me much angrier than it should, but I would take polymorph tier over these.

[Zoros]

At first I loved the changes done to arcane, I like to stack an additional charge per target, and then cast Ice Ward on the tank, and boom! However, I don't know what I have to do against a single target, and that is frustrating. I'm currently playing with Invocation, maybe it's because I'm a bad player, but mana management feels really really weird.

The burn-noburn decision was really intuitive for me in Cataclysm, but right know is so confusing. I even feel that Arcane Power should no longer increase the mana cost of spells. I'm herbalist, and Water Spirit+Mana Gem is a huge help, but the spec still feels unplayable.

From my pov lvl 90 talents instead of adding more depth, has destroyed a fun gameplay. I will conitnue playing arcane in PvP, but for PvE...

[jtmzac]

It's understandable that a lot of people are upset by the changes but I think most mages have come to realise there's nothing wrong with the level 90 talents, they're just different. I actually like the level 90 talents. I use Invocation for frost pve and IW for frost pvp. The changes to Invocation on the ptr are definitely going to help with the problems pre-pull and while soloing.

For me the problem isn't the talents it's the removal of the old arcane which was different and unique. The new specs all just feel similar and like rotations that you follow, which for me isn't what made my mage fun. Despite all the flak arcane used to take it was an interesting and unique class that relied on being able to adapt to the situation quickly.

[Volitar]

I really like the concept of these talents but in actuality they are horrible. If they don't want to scrap them (which they should) they should at least fix them.

I literally thought of these in 5 seconds;

First off Invocation has its channel time cut in half. Invocation grants a smaller damage buff every time it ticks and when you finish the channel you get the same damage buff as the previous version.

Feels less clunky and is less punishing if you cannot complete the channel.

Rune of Power is auto cast at your feet. When you move the rune will lag behind you slightly so you cannot gain the buff while moving, once you stop the rune catches up to you and once again remains at your feet.

I'm sure Blizzard could come up with a better solution than some guy thinking to himself for 5 seconds.

[mrgreenthump]

I still stand by my point that it feels really clunky to use each 1 of them, sure its extra stuff to do, but i'd rather derp for 5 mins than use invocation, but it just happens to be the best of the 3 for boss fights atm, so we are forced to use it.. And dont give me "you dont have to use it", you just have to as a progression raider..


And what comes to there changes made to them at 5.1 ptr, sure its nice and gives mana gem something to do as invocation, but still would really like to see some sort of damage shield while casting invocation that would only work in pve, so you wouldnt have to move on stuff like cobalt mine that lands on you 1 sec after you start ur evoc. And as for RoP sure I can spam it now so wont have to wait for cd after movement, but i still hate the cast time on movement fights, would rather have it so i could cast it while moving to the new location.

[celinamuna]

Personally i like them, i find em an "Interesting" change to overall rotation. (And at least they're better than the rogue ones)

[Sattori]

The truth, as proved using math by Kavan on the Elitist jerks forums (in this thread)

Arcane no longer has a burn phase, even with Invocation.

It's completely viable to reforge out of Mastery and burn/evocate constantly with Invocation. No, you won't do as much damage as conserving (but if you were interested in top damage, you'd be Fire/Frost). But you'll still beat most other class/specs in similar gear.

Note here that "viable" means "competitive against average players in a non-progression setting".

[Imnick]

The fact that it is possible to do a rotation that produces lower DPS than doing it a better way with no real gain in mobility, utility or ease does not really disprove what he was saying.
You can do a burn phase, but there's absolutely no reason to, ever.