"The Space Project"

[Lord Kristivas]

People have been requesting a better space game. I know I'd like to see more than rail-shooting. It's not that I mind rail shooting, but there could be so much more. Anyway, they used to mention space in interviews and how they had something big down the line. Like Guild Capital Ships and such.

So, my question is, how would you like to see it done? Like Eve Online? Try and keep it realistic. They're not gonna spend millions on a space travel expansion, and completely change the game. Think along the lines of being workable with this engine/game.

I think it would work best to expand the galaxy map. Add open sections of space you can get to, where you can do whatever. PvP, get resources, destroy NPC ships.

I don't think a complete open galaxy, like STO, would work very well for this game. I picture a bigger galaxy map, with planets, rail-shooter space missions, and (huge) open space areas. In these open space missions, they could all sorts of content. Pirates, escort missions, random Mandalorian/whatever attack, and so forth. On PvP servers, that would obviously be a big thing. Maybe you could even land on a planet for quests and such.

Some ideas for content in such an area.
-The space in each quadrant could have a theme. In Hutt space, you got a lot of cartel ships and criminals. In Core space, republic shit. Etc.
-You could have areas break out into fighting, like an Empire and Republic fleet converging for battle.
-Objectives in each space area. "Controlling" Hutt Space might give you access to special cartel vendors, while "Controlling" the Unknown Regions space gives your faction access to a planet with content.
-Control could reset at a certain time, for randomly, for spontaneous efforts in re-taking it.

I don't think we could use our current ships, though. The ships we use now are more like dogfighters. Flying around that quickly in open space would be a headache. I think maybe each person might be put in command in a larger ship (think post-level 50). Perhaps you could upgrade these ships as well. Earning upgrades by "leveling" your ship would be awesome.

Ship ideas
-Customizable appearance.
-Appearance changes with upgrades.
-Choices in upgrades, meaning we don't just upgrade to the next level of the same item. Perhaps you want better missiles, or perhaps you want more lasers and less shielding? Tachyon-beam hull-splitters, and so forth. Not just one decision for upgrading your ship.
-Able to upgrade to better ships, though not to Capital ships, as those would be guild-only.

Space PvP
-Warzone Space Matches could be like Star Wars: Battlefront 2, and if you're unfamiliar, check it out on you-tube.

Guild Capital Ship Ideas
-Space PvP with your ship vs. other guild ships.
-Teams would be even. 8 vs. 8 and 16 vs. 16 brackets. Some would man turrets, some would man shields and shit for special items (deploying mines, missiles, etc), some could lead fighters. Maybe even a boarding party, but that's next-level shit.

[RoninaThorstone]

This is a hard thread to wake up to.

The secret space project was one of the things that kept me subscribed for 8 months. However, I now believe that it was a PR stunt designed to do just that. Placate people so they stayed subscribed a little longer. The fact that they haven't discussed any details, and thus closed off any input from the community, is a bad sign. It either means it wasn't in alpha, and playable, when the guild summit happened and thus can't show us anything about it or they will launch a space project that runs the risk of being exactly what we don't want.

[Mister K]

This is a hard thread to wake up to.

The secret space project was one of the things that kept me subscribed for 8 months.

So only stayed subbed for 8 months because of the Space Project? Why, you could of simply resub when Space updates would come, which in this case they haven't (at least not yet).

Maybe a PR stunt but maybe it is coming at some later date.

[RoninaThorstone]

So only stayed subbed for 8 months because of the Space Project? Why, you could of simply resub when Space updates would come, which in this case they haven't (at least not yet).

Maybe a PR stunt but maybe it is coming at some later date.

I spent the time building an account, gearing ships, gathering fleet comms.

I was hoping that fleet comms would be useful in the future.

[Angella]

I can't believe the words are coming out of my mouth, but copying STO's space combat system would be pretty nice. Subs in space ftw!

[Lord Kristivas]

I can't believe the words are coming out of my mouth, but copying STO's space combat system would be pretty nice. Subs in space ftw!

Maybe the combat system, but I don't think the game would work with that wide-open theme. If that's ALL your game is, yeah, but it's obviously not for SWTOR. That's why I was thinking an open area of space within each section of the galaxy map.

Also, HK, you never know what's going to happen. The space project could have been turned into the first expansion, while their focus has been getting F2P out. Really, how else could they do it? It's too much content for just a patch.

[Deleted]

Don't EvE and STO use point/click to move mechanics? Clicking where you want to go sucks imo. It's purely a subjective matter but despite how amazing some say EvE is, the simple act of movement...sucks to me. Copy everything else by all means but make the movement/combat akin to JTL (SWG's space expansion 2004). Pitch, yaw and roll please...none of this 'click over there as that's where I wanna go' rubbish

As for it maybe being a PR stunt they last mentioned it in august and nada since then. If it turns out to be a hoax or even just abandoned I'll consider leaving the game that same day. To me TOR is a half done SW game. The half missing being a good space element. I hope but am not hopeful.

[RoninaThorstone]

If you guys want a real space project...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92rb-...eature=related

But I'm sure swtor will do something like this. Right?

[Deleted]

If you guys want a real space project...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92rb-...eature=related

But I'm sure swtor will do something like this. Right?

Nah, I doubt TOR will invest that much time/money into a space project. The problem is that Star Citizen won't be live for 2-3 years. In the meantime I'd settle for a TOR version (be it cheaper and less awesome).

[Kelimbror]

If you guys want a real space project...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92rb-...eature=related

But I'm sure swtor will do something like this. Right?

Oh god, I would throw them my money if they did something this awesome.

[vizzle]

Oh god, I would throw them my money if they did something this awesome.

Knowing EA, they'd have your windows crack every 5 minutes from asteroids, and you'd have to pay 99 cents to have it fixed.

[Deleted]

world of starcraft, I would love it

[Frostea23]

Many of the ideas in the OP was actually hinted at by the SWTOR developers during the initial launch months as potential content ideas, including guild capital ships and full 3D space battles. [Source]

However, none of that came to pass, and is highly unlikely it will in the foreseeable future after EA hit the SWTOR development teams with multiple rounds of layoffs in both May and July.

The development's team attention right now is on core game play aspects: Ops, dungeons, new questing zones, and bug fixes. Do not get me wrong; I really wanted the aforementioned space features, but it has become clear to me now it is unlikely nigh remote possibility.

[RoninaThorstone]

Nah, I doubt TOR will invest that much time/money into a space project.

Starcitizen only needed 2 million. Swtor took about 125 million. I doubt that another 2 million would be back breaking in terms of cost.

But time? Yeah. Its a little late in the game to add real space combat.

Maybe they should have market tested rail shooter before unveiling it and then insulting everyone repeatedly.

[SirRobin]

Like with the rest of the game, Austin had their chance. They had the time, treasure, and talent, to do better. They simply chose not to. Worse, when it blew up in their faces Daniel responded by going on an inaccurate mini-rant, on stage, at PAX no less. All he actually did was showoff that he had no idea what he was talking about. After their forum went into meltdown mode, on August 8th 2010, they even opened an official thread for it in their forum. It was one of the busiest topics on the board, went all the way up through the wipe, and never got one single post from a developer. They were replying in threads like "Sith Marriage," but avoided the space combat thread like it had the black death inside.

It was just another clue that BioWare didn't "get it." With all the layoffs and "decided to leaves," the chances that Austin would finally do something now? Well, they are slim, at best.

[Edge-]

Starcitizen only needed 2 million. Swtor took about 125 million. I doubt that another 2 million would be back breaking in terms of cost.

But time? Yeah. Its a little late in the game to add real space combat.

Maybe they should have market tested rail shooter before unveiling it and then insulting everyone repeatedly.

Different games can accomplish different things with different budgets. I'd be surprised if implementing that kind of system would be so cheap (yes, 2 million dollars is like, dirt cheap in a AAA game) given the framework they already have.

I'm sure they did market test the rail shooter, just as they market tested most things in the game. I remember hearing a lot of good things about it during the beta/launch, so I don't remember it being something that was viewed very negatively >.>

And just because... we don't know how much SWTOR cost so don't throw out random numbers : P

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 10:42 AM ----------

Worse, when it blew up in their faces Daniel responded by going on an inaccurate mini-rant, on stage, at PAX no less. All he actually did was showoff that he had no idea what he was talking about. After their forum went into meltdown mode, on August 8th 2010, they even opened an official thread for it in their forum.

WHY DO I MISS ALL THE GOOD DRAMA!

Tell me about it, I love drama, no matter where it comes from :3

[vizzle]

I'm sure they did market test the rail shooter, just as they market tested most things in the game. I remember hearing a lot of good things about it during the beta/launch, so I don't remember it being something that was viewed very negatively >.>

I feel like a lot of people were in denial during the beta. I remember checking the TOR sites that were leaking beta info everyday (forgot what its name was, not darthhater though), and there were always a few people who were doom and gloom about it, but everyone else (including me) was ignoring them. I mean, people call doom and gloom about everything, but this time they seemed to have been right. The game seemed a lot cooler behind the curtain.

[Lord Kristivas]

Holy fucking thread derail, Batman.

[SirRobin]

1WHY DO I MISS ALL THE GOOD DRAMA!

Tell me about it, I love drama, no matter where it comes from :3

Had to dig but here it is.



About 5:30.

Just a mini-rant, mind you, but it was sad and funny all the same. Hehe... I still role my eyes every time I hear him not knowing what a rail shooter is.

Talk about a trip down memory lane. Even found a couple of posts, "pre-wipe," that I had stashed away.

Well, would you look at that, we've now reached the fifth "consolidated" thread. Below is a timeline with links to more information about Space Combat. I think there is another interview with Daniel that involves Space Combat but I can't find it.

1. Comic-Con Mission (July 14th)
2. Star Wars panel at Comic-Con (July 23rd)
3. Details From Sean (July 23rd)
4. SWTOR-Station PC Action Leak (August 8th) Remember to click on the little US/UK flag in upper right for English
5. First Consolidated Thread (August 8th) 4,756 Posts 103,375 Views
6. PC Gamer Scans (August 9th)
7. Second Consolidated Thread (August 10th) 4,780 Posts 80,395 Views
8. Space Combat Trailer (August 17th)
9. Third Consolidated Thread (August 17th) 4,382 Posts 54,252 Views
10. Darth Hater-James Ohlen Interview (August 18th)
11. Gamespot-Daniel Erickson Interview (August 18th)
12. Allvatar-Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk Interview (August 20th)
13. MMORPGITALIA-Daniel Erickson Interview (August 21st)
14. Fourth Consolidated Thread (August 25th) 3,349 Posts 41,012 Views
15. GameTrailers-Daniel Erickson Interview (August 31st) GC had already ended, so not sure which day it was really recorded.
16. Space Combat Page (September 3rd)
17. Fifth Consolidated Thread (September 3rd)

There are over 17,000 posts since August 8th plus more than 275,000 views in the five "consolidated" threads. So far that is. That is not counting all the posts in threads closed by mods, directing them to post in a consolidated thread nor the comments on the news or trailer page or topic in the N&A board.

_________________________________________________

Here are my thoughts about BioWare's "Space Combat."

First, BioWare over-hyped "space combat."

This is proven by comparing how BioWare handled the space combat reveal to how they handled other reveals, like the first playable non-human race of the primary game.

Space Combat Reveal

1. Baited us with the Comic-Con Mission.
2. Revealed it anyway during the Star Wars panel at Comic-Con even though the "mission" was not completed. Showing that they planned to reveal it anyway.
3. Provided more details from Sean himself in a N&A thread about it. Which also pointed us at an upcoming issue of PC Gamer.
4. Finally created consolidated threads, over sixteen thousand posts since August 8th, to deal with the confusion over details coming out in PC Action magazine which BioWare somehow didn't know about or expect.
5. Posted a video focusing on Space Combat on a Tuesday, well outside their normal Friday update schedule.
6. Continue to "spin" about Space Combat in various interviews. Even when they show some previous claims may be less than accurate.

First Playable Non Human Race Reveal

1. EA UK Press Event

BioWare chose to shine a big bright spotlight on their "space combat" reveal, not the community.

Second, they only made a minigame.

BioWare put a lot of effort into drawing the community's attention to their "space combat" reveal. After the "there is space combat" line at Comic-Con, Sean created a specific thread in News & Announcements to expand on the statement. "Space combat is an alternative gameplay experience to the primary game of storytelling, questing, and ground-based combat." He never said "tunnel-shooter" or minigame.

Given our experience with previous BioWare products, it would likely not be realistic to expect The Old Republic's "alternative gameplay experience" to get equal treatment to the "primary game." However, alternative doesn't mean trivial either. The PC Action and PC Gamer revelations describe single-player gameplay that only lasts a few minutes at a time in an MMORPG, Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, environment... a minigame.

Yes PC Gamer was told we'll get co-op and PvP "in the future," but that won't do The Old Republic's critical launch period any good. Now Greg has said, "PvP and space is not something we're currently planning." Those expecting this 2D experience to change into a more 3D experience are also ignoring Gordon's comments, "a whole lot of people who play RPG type games don't really do the 3D thing that well -- it isn't their strongest suit."

You could say that those expecting Star Fox 64's "All Range Mode" are actually deluding themselves like those who expected better than a Shoot 'Em Up, from a highly regarded studio with a development budget of more than a hundred million dollars and five plus years to create a Star Wars MMORPG, did. Should we also wonder about a minigame NOT being optional as implied in a recent interview?

Third, The Old Republic's "space combat" is obsolete.

The type of gameplay PC Action and PC Gamer describe is known as a Shoot 'Em Up. The Shoot 'Em Up mostly migrated to the consoles back in the nineties. Its inherent gameplay limitations "fit" better with the user-interface and hardware limitations of consoles. On the PC it is a "niche" game made by indie developers and no where near as popular as the dominant genres of the PC game market, RPG, FPS, and RTS.

Its not too difficult a concept to grasp that if you are going to put an "alternative gameplay experience" or "optional gameplay event," in your game. You should want it to appeal to as many people as possible, especially if its not "optional." You don't see major developers making Shoot 'Em Ups for the PC, or even bothering to port them over from the consoles, anymore because they know there isn't enough of a market to make it worthwhile.

In addition the only real advantage that Shoot 'Em Ups have over Space Combat Simulators is how easy they are to make. XWA, WC3, BF2, etc... show what can be achieved. Using a Shoot 'Em Up to depict "space combat" is no longer current, its old-fashioned, its obsolete on the PC. Also if Space Combat is not "completely optional" then its lack of popularity, on the PC platform, hurts instead of helps the rest of the game.

In conclusion...

BioWare over-hyped a single-player mingame that uses obsolete gameplay and so only have themselves to blame for the confusion, frustration, and or disappointment that this reveal has left in its wake.

_________________________________________________

This has been going on long enough that I have begun to feel a bit sorry for those attempting to defend this design decision by BioWare. Its an almost indefensible position. The reality is that BioWare could have done better than this but chose not to. Of course its when you get into should have done better that the water gets murkier. Due to this I have actually tried to play devil's advocate to my own position.

I enjoy playing devil's advocate sometimes but I have not been able to do it here successfully. What I have managed to come up with, on the other hand, is a statement that BioWare might make to help calm their community of "potential" customers. A way to resolve the confusion, disappointment, and contradictions. Naturally it won't make everyone happy but it should at least help calm the waters so to speak.

Perhaps as a response to an interview question?

Space Combat?

Well there has been a lot of confusion over Space Combat in The Old Republic lately that should be cleared up. Yes it is a single-player part of the game, just as yes, players will get to take part in some, emphasis on some, Space Combat as part of their class story. Also, yes, it is what many would call a tunnel-shooter.

Of course putting something like the X-Wing series from Lucas Arts in The Old Republic would have been amazing. However, we didn't think we could do it proper justice with the time and resources we had available. We also didn't want space combat to just be CGI cut scenes, no matter how cinematic that would have let us make it.

We felt a tunnel shooter was the best middle point, between the two, where we could have the player be an active participant and still keep to our development schedule. While we are not currently planning to add Co-op and PvP by launch, that doesn't mean we never will. If there is enough community interest, then of course we'll look into adding it.

The same is true with the tunnel shooter itself. That doesn't mean it can't have more 3D elements added to it. Just that this is what will be included in The Old Republic at launch. If players choose to focus more on Space Combat, there will be plenty of optional and more challenging missions, with rewards, available.

Naturally the goal here is too deliver the most entertaining alternative gameplay experience we can by launch. If community interest is large enough then of course we can look at doing a lot more with Space Combat through patches and expansions. Thank you.

While this would hardly make everyone "happy." I think this would be the most constructive way for BioWare to reply. Also I'm not saying the evidence we have currently supports this statement. Just that it might be the smartest thing for them to say.

_________________________________________________

For many of us who do not support this design decision by BioWare it has to do with what happens when we enter that "hotspot." Not that we want BioWare to completely copy Jump to Lightspeed, EVE Online, etc... What we want is a better in-game experience, within that "hotspot," than what a Shoot 'Em Up can provide.

I'm not saying that games like Rebel Assault, Rogue Squadron, Star Fox, etc... were not great games in their day. Just that my tastes and abilities grew beyond them as I aged and the industry itself matured. Asteroids was a great game too but I have no desire for The Old Republic's Space Combat to be like it.

_________________________________________________

By the by, here is a direct link to this post and here is a link to who is posting in this thread. That should make it easier for some to keep tabs on how many times I, and others, post here. Well then, lets get too it, shall we?

I was going to update the longer post in my sig, but I'm just not in the mood to. So instead I'll just list links to all of this subject's "official" iterations.

_________________________________________________
Space Combat In The Old Republic

1. First Consolidated Thread 4,756 Posts
2. Second Consolidated Thread 4,780 Posts
3. Third Consolidated Thread 4,382 Posts
4. Fourth Consolidated Thread 3,349 Posts
5. Fifth Consolidated Thread 4,548 Posts
6. Sixth Consolidated Thread 4,794 Posts
7. Seventh Consolidated Thread 4,568 Posts
8. Eighth Consolidated Thread 4,938 Posts
9. Ninth Thread 1,045 Posts
10. Tenth Thread 1,028 Posts
11. Eleventh Thread 1,036 Posts
12. Twelfth Thread 1,099 Posts
13. Thirteenth Thread 1,046 Posts
14. Fourteenth Thread 1,023 Posts
15. Fifteenth Thread 1,047 Posts
16. Sixteenth Thread 1,019 Posts
17. Seventeenth Thread 1,004 Posts
18. Eighteenth Thread 1,137 Posts
19. Nineteenth Thread 1,190 Posts
20. Twentieth Thread 1,115 Posts
21. Twenty-first Thread 1,019 Posts
22. Twenty-second Thread 1,106 Posts
23. Twenty-third Thread 1,070 Posts
24. Twenty-fourth Thread 1,007 Posts
25. Twenty-fifth Thread 1,040 Posts
26. Twenty-sixth Thread 1,040 Posts
27. Twenty-seventh Thread 1,047 Posts
28. Twenty-eighth Thread 1,030 Posts
29. Twenty-ninth Thread Current

That many threads with all those posts, 57,000 plus, and not one of them from a developer? BioWare had the time, treasure, and talent, to do better than represent such an iconic part of the Star Wars brand with a single-player rail-shooter mini-game in a pay-to-play massively multiplayer online experience. They just chose not too.

Of course that was pre-wipe so most the links don't work anymore. Oh and the first post is from the first week of September 2010 and the econd is from the first week of December 2010.

[RoninaThorstone]

Had to dig but here it is.



About 5:30.

Just a mini-rant, mind you, but it was sad and funny all the same. Hehe... I still role my eyes every time I hear him not knowing what a rail shooter is.

People who play RPGs can't think three dimensionally. duh.