Just me, or are Shamans not 'Airy' enough?

[Lavindar]

4th shammy spec, tank spec, primarily based on air... >_>

No Enhancement is based already on air, our must needed and beloved tank spec (for me anyways) need to be earth based to complete the four elements

[Omanley]

This is kind of like saying "oh, if we're just talking martial arts, then a guy who's a black belt in Karate totally knows Kung Fu, too."

Not quite. The point was that supposedly druids are a specialised shaman. That means when dealing with nature, druids would be better. That would however, also mean that shamans would be able to work with plants and animals. Kinda like:"I decide to focus on plants, animals, the moon and the wind (all of which I already work with anyways) and discard fire, water and earth completely for that.
Or, if you want to use your martial artist analogy: I decide to specialise on kung fu kicks, becoming a specialised kicker, but still knowing the basics (druid), versus a regular wushu practioner (shaman). If we applied your logic, the regular martial artist wont be able to kick unless he forsakes punches, throws and the like.

Elune's powers are Light-based; she's the source of the Night Elf priesthood. She has nothing to do with Arcane magic, really.

With arcane magic I meant the type of damage specific spells ingame deal (Moonfire, Starfire etc.). I guess it's a fail on blizzard's side if those spells dont deal holy damage instead.

Uhhh, no. They're snakey because their master, Naralex, is stuck in the Emerald Dream and his nightmares are affecting the Caverns as a whole. That's sort of the entire point of the instance. There's a very tenuous connection to the Old Gods, in that the Nightmare is supposedly Old-God in origin, but there's no direct or deliberate Old God influence, there.

Uuuhm that doesn't make much sense for me. It is likely that the emerald nightmare is caused by an old god. Naralex is stuxk in that nightmare, hence through the tainting of his stay in the ED the wailing caverns got tainted to. Sounds like old god influence alright. The druids in WC turned into lunatics, working against their former goal of renweing life in the barrens. That sounds awefully close to me to what happened to DW.

As a complete aside; there's only one culture that sees snakes as "evil" in the real world; Christian-based cultures

Yes, you're right about that one :P. It is a rather-wide spread misbelief though. Which "could" have had influence in what blizz made the WD-druids have as an animal form.

We know this isn't true for a host of reasons. Most critically, that the Titans locked them all away in a prison, rather than trying to free them.

The elements are at war against each other. Always. As a result, even with the madness of the old gods sealed, there would've been chaos still, making life impossible for humanoids, animals etc. (the titan's goal is to create order in the world, remember?). The elemental forces are not inherently bad either. They just do their own thing (like horde and alliance for example). They dont care about balance either.
Fire is destructive. It craves destruction (like ragnaros does). It lends its powers to shamans, because shamans will likely not use fire just to light a torch or something, but burn stuff. Water instead has healing properties, as a result you can ally for example with the Hydraxian Waterlords. Similarly there is Earth (Therazane not being 100% hostile, but willing to listen).And so on... That's my take on the thingy though.

That much is true; I don't think I ever claimed they were still working for the Old Gods, just that they had, originally.

Well, you said

Also; Ragnaros and his buddies aren't the Kings of the Elements. They're the Lieutenants of the Old Gods.

As in: They still are. I just take that as a mistake then though . They are the Kings/Queens of their realms (Why would princess Theradas be a princess, if not for her mother, Therazane, being the queen?) While they are the top dogs though, they cant control everyone of their subjects to have them refrain lending their powers to humanoids summoning them. Maybe she/they even urge them to do that, to get back out of their prisons eventually.

Ragnaros is made of fire. You're made of meat and bones. So's a bull. And that bull will totally wreck you. Being made of X does not mean you're immune to X.

Well, meat can smash and be smashed. But fire cannot burn fire, so....

[Lavindar]

Not quite. The point was that supposedly druids are a specialised shaman. That means when dealing with nature, druids would be better. That would however, also mean that shamans would be able to work with plants and animals. Kinda like:"I decide to focus on plants, animals, the moon and the wind (all of which I already work with anyways) and discard fire, water and earth completely for that.
Or, if you want to use your martial artist analogy: I decide to specialise on kung fu kicks, becoming a specialised kicker, but still knowing the basics (druid), versus a regular wushu practioner (shaman). If we applied your logic, the regular martial artist wont be able to kick unless he forsakes punches, throws and the like.

While it's somehow like this, druids are not just super specialized shamans, but the way the use to commune with the spirits is akin to shamanism;

With arcane magic I meant the type of damage specific spells ingame deal (Moonfire, Starfire etc.). I guess it's a fail on blizzard's side if those spells dont deal holy damage instead.

Arcane it's just a ingame thing to balace purpose, they are actually al light powers, some from the White Lady/Elune/Mu'sha, some from the Sun/An'she/(perhaps the Light of the eastern cultures)

Uuuhm that doesn't make much sense for me. It is likely that the emerald nightmare is caused by an old god. Naralex is stuxk in that nightmare, hence through the tainting of his stay in the ED the wailing caverns got tainted to. Sounds like old god influence alright. The druids in WC turned into lunatics, working against the former gold of renweing life in the barrens. That sounds awefully close to me to what happened to DW.

The snake form they assume is not the evil thing about they, it's just that they are druids that follow the path of the snake. Like the druids of the talon follow the path of the birds.

The elements are at war against each other. Always. As a result, even with the madness of the old gods sealed, there would've been chaos still, making life impossible for humanoids, animals etc. (the titan's goal is to create order in the world, remember?). The elemental forces are not inherently bad either. They just do their own thing (like horde and alliance for example). They dont care about balance either.
Fire is destructive. It craves destruction (like ragnaros does). It lends its powers to shamans, because shamans will likely not use fire just to light a torch or something, but burn stuff. Water instead has healing properties, as a result you can ally for example with the Hydraxian Waterlords. Similarly there is Earth (Therazane not being 100% hostile, but willing to listen).And so on... That's my take on the thingy though.

What you said is true, but there is another plane other than Azeroth and the elemental prisions(Firelands, Deepholme, Skywall, The Abyssal Maw) that the elementals essence come from.

Well, meat can smash and be smashed. But fire cannot burn fire, so....

Actually using fire against fire is pretty efficient, one way to stop wild fires, is to make another fire that go in the opposite direction, when they colide they extinguish because theres nothing more to burn;

[Omanley]

While it's somehow like this, druids are not just super specialized shamans, but the way the use to commune with the spirits is akin to shamanism;

Yes, they're both spiritualists, no questioning that. I just dont see where wind magic is coming from, looking at druids.

The snake form they assume is not the evil thing about they, it's just that they are druids that follow the path of the snake. Like the druids of the talon follow the path of the birds.

The impression I had all these years that this reptilianised (cold blooded) version symbolised evil (the entire cave is swarmed by snakes, wind serpents, crocolisks, raptors, a turtle and a thunder lizard (hydra rarespawns outside of the instance)). If you dont see the snake stuff as evil, WC doesn't look all that bad really. Naralex though at the very end transforms into a bird, not a wind serpent, to fly out of the cave. I really do think that the snake forms they use are caused by some evil influence, but I may be wrong.

What you said is true, but there is another plane other than Azeroth and the elemental prisions(Firelands, Deepholme, Skywall, The Abyssal Maw) that the elementals essence come from.

There is? Never heard about that. Where did you get this from (not saying I dont beliefe you, just curious)?

Actually using fire against fire is pretty efficient, one way to stop wild fires, is to make another fire that go in the opposite direction, when they colide they extinguish because theres nothing more to burn;

Talking about RL, yes, that's true. We're talking about magical fire though It cant directly hurt him, and I dont think there is any situation in which you would burn up all oxigen to cause them harm in that way (it would kill you as well, lol),

[Endus]

With arcane magic I meant the type of damage specific spells ingame deal (Moonfire, Starfire etc.). I guess it's a fail on blizzard's side if those spells dont deal holy damage instead.

Moon/Starfire don't have any special connection with Elune that I know of. They're Druidic. Elune is a goddess. Night Elf Priests pull on Elune's teachings, not Druids.

Uuuhm that doesn't make much sense for me. It is likely that the emerald nightmare is caused by an old god. Naralex is stuxk in that nightmare, hence through the tainting of his stay in the ED the wailing caverns got tainted to. Sounds like old god influence alright. The druids in WC turned into lunatics, working against their former goal of renweing life in the barrens. That sounds awefully close to me to what happened to DW.

What happened to Deathwing was deliberate, and he was corrupted. Nobody in the Wailing Caverns shows any sign of Old God corruption; no tentacles or other mutations that are their hallmark. Naralex was meddling with the Emerald Dream to try and "fix" the Barrens, got caught up in nightmare (not even necessarily the Nightmare), and his strength and what he was trying to do through the Dream is what caused the spreading insanity and more generic corruption, where everything got fouled up and turned feral and vicious.

The elemental forces are not inherently bad either. They just do their own thing (like horde and alliance for example). They dont care about balance either.

Elementals don't care about balance. The Elemental Spirits, on the other hand, do. They aren't elementals. They're more like the deities of elementals.

[Deleted]

Im not sure that a consensus can be reached in this discoussion, in the end its a game and blizzard didn't completely define the subject so its just up to opinions. I agree on the fourth spec, it would also give the chance to re-design Enhancement.

[Lavindar]

There is? Never heard about that. Where did you get this from (not saying I dont beliefe you, just curious)?

There's no direct lore I can show you, but as there elementals on other planets other than Azeroth, and the Elemental Planes (Firelands and the others) are Titanic creations.

Im not sure that a consensus can be reached in this discoussion, in the end its a game and blizzard didn't completely define the subject so its just up to opinions. I agree on the fourth spec, it would also give the chance to re-design Enhancement.

Yes, but its the discussion itself that's fun, not the conclusion

[Deleted]

Elementals don't care about balance. The Elemental Spirits, on the other hand, do. They aren't elementals. They're more like the deities of elementals.

I've found this is really hard to explain the relation between them TBH (since we don't seem to have anything to base the explanation off).

The Spirits themselves are indeed deity-like, but not... worshipped by the elementals as such. They represent the four elements plus the Wilds (and arcane is hinted in the new novel to display a certain degree of Spirit-like behaviour), but are in themselves not material. They're the overseers of everything that goes on in the universe, they span all the worlds. That's the first layer.

The second layer is a planet's specific Spirits. They're a subgroup, part of the whole, but also very individual. If two worlds are connected (like Azeroth and Draenor), one world's Spirits may feel the discomfort of the other's if something goes wrong. Otherwise, they're quite literally a world apart.

The third layer would then be elementals, born of the elements, but not elements in their own right. They possess varying degrees of self-conscience and intelligence. They also command the powers of their parent element without having to ask for them. The greatest elementals (the first to gain consciousness or perhaps the ones that prove the strongest - eventually, it might be the same thing) tend to form a hierarchy with them on top, they're the Elemental Lords.

So to recap: the first layer are the universe-and-life-building Spirits, the second are their sapient reflections that exist within each world in particular, the third are the elementals, which show a fair amount of free will (being able to think outside the concept of balance altogether).

[Omanley]

I somehow get the impression that this thread gets more detailed than blizz with their lore :P.
I guess you could somehow make it explainable as to why druids would be able to use wind magic. HOWEVER, it doesn't feel druidic to me at the least. Maybe that's just me being selfish, but I'd like for us to have at least one element that's unique. Fire is already shared with mages and warlocks, frost is shared with mages and death knights, and earht kinda lacks good looking spells imo. So it goes down to air/lightning really, which I think is a shaman trademark. It kinda hurts whenever I see a wind/lightning ability going to druids, or one of them getting a new graphic.

[Deleted]

I somehow get the impression that this thread gets more detailed than blizz with their lore :P.

Blizz as a whole? Perhaps.

Christie Golden? She's a shaman RPer who keeps leaving these little hints out there for lore junkies to discover. I reckon we don't know half of what's going on in her head.

[Domo]

Give my Shaman a mount in the form of a ball of air!

[Zymn]

Like lokann (and me) said, trolls have priests, and therefor can wield light magic. A paladin is basically a warrior wielding light magic. Trolls can be warriors, they can be priests, they should be able to be paladins also.

The order of the silver hand (the first paladins) were created first as bodyguards for the vulnerable priests. Soon they realised those defenders were spreading the word of the church better, they teached their bodyguards the way of the light, and thus paladins were born. A follower of whichever loa grants light magic actually learning melee combat and wearing plate? Not a far stretch. Less than troll warlocks and druids tbh.

Technically, Troll (and undead) priests are ONLY shadow priests by lore and only wield holy magic as a class mechanic. Troll priests practice voodoo, which can extend to troll warlock as well, and Undead are physically harmed when channeling the light. The horde as a whole did not have any true wielders of the light until blood elves captured Mu'ru and manipulated his power for it.

[Deleted]

Technically, Troll (and undead) priests are ONLY shadow priests by lore and only wield holy magic as a class mechanic. Troll priests practice voodoo, which can extend to troll warlock as well, and Undead are physically harmed when channeling the light. The horde as a whole did not have any true wielders of the light until blood elves captured Mu'ru and manipulated his power for it.

False, Forsaken priests can in fact channel the Light, but it hurts them to do so (which is why it's not a widespread practice). It's implied that the reason we don't have free-willed undead paladins is because they have to 'fill' themselves with the Light rather than simply direct it, which would cause them to be completely incapacitated.

As for trolls, they may not channel the Light, but that doesn't mean they're all shadow priests either. They do have a loa of healing after all. A more apt comparison would be druidism, but instead of tapping directly into the source of druidic power, they gain it through worship of a specific loa.

[Zymn]

False, Forsaken priests can in fact channel the Light, but it hurts them to do so (which is why it's not a widespread practice). It's implied that the reason we don't have free-willed undead paladins is because they have to 'fill' themselves with the Light rather than simply direct it, which would cause them to be completely incapacitated.

As for trolls, they may not channel the Light, but that doesn't mean they're all shadow priests either. They do have a loa of healing after all. A more apt comparison would be druidism, but instead of tapping directly into the source of druidic power, they gain it through worship of a specific loa.

Being reasonable, this healing could still be shadow based. There are many cases of 'shadow mending' and such spells, usually trolls if not undead.

I tend to think troll shaman focus more on ancestral spirit part of shamanism than the elements, another aspect of shamans that is sorely unrepresented.

As for Forsaken, you are correct in that they can channel the light, but choose not to, hence the cult of forgotten shadow. Wording error on that part.

The discussion of druids having more 'air' spells than shaman are kinda 2 sides of the same coin. As air elementals in wow is usually lighting and storms, those things are also part of nature. If you look instead at the way each class wields their respective magics it makes the pill a bit easier to swallow. Druids are more peaceful in how they bend nature to their will, whereas shaman are more aggressive tackling wilder forces in taming fire and earth as well, sometimes by force or bargaining.

A blast of air from a druids more tranquil approach becomes a blast of lightning from a shaman's more aggressive approach. Not to say a druids method is any less effective, its just a different way of going about it.

[Lavindar]

False, Forsaken priests can in fact channel the Light, but it hurts them to do so (which is why it's not a widespread practice). It's implied that the reason we don't have free-willed undead paladins is because they have to 'fill' themselves with the Light rather than simply direct it, which would cause them to be completely incapacitated.

As for trolls, they may not channel the Light, but that doesn't mean they're all shadow priests either. They do have a loa of healing after all. A more apt comparison would be druidism, but instead of tapping directly into the source of druidic power, they gain it through worship of a specific loa.

The think about Forsaken and the Light is more than Light heal they rotten flash, what makes then feel again, and then the feel all the pain of death that they don't feel otherwise.

[Deleted]

The think about Forsaken and the Light is more than Light heal they rotten flash, what makes then feel again, and then the feel all the pain of death that they don't feel otherwise.

Pretty much, they're infused with necrotic energies, so only after part of them is 'cleansed' temporarily do they really feel what they 'got used to' in a way. Arthas felt the same in the novel when he was blasted with the Light by Uther.