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  1. #1

    Remove PvP Stats from PvP Gear

    Burst is a major problem. PvP gear only makes it worse.

    Contrary to popular belief, more PvP gear does not address the burst issue. In fact, it exacerbates it further due to there being more PvP power on gear than PvP resilience. As such, a full PvP geared player will do more damage to another fully PvP geared player than they would without any PvP gear at all. In fact, as it is right now the difference between a fresh PvP player and someone decked out is more massive than ever before.

    Thus, I propose that with the advent of baseline PvP resilience, we should consider telling Blizzard to remove PvP stats from PvP gear.

    To address ilvl issues, I'd say that random battlegrounds should necessitate a slightly greater grind and provide LFR quality loot. Malevolent gladiator gear should be about equal to normal mode gear but I'd say should be gated behind ratings once again; nothing substantial, just something like a min 1600 requirement for a pvp weapon (recall it used to be 1800). Elite gear should once again provide greater stats equivalent to heroic raid gear. The gating involved in PvP already ensures that high ranked players will not get their gear before heroic raiders; this will just make sure that the vice versa is true as well.

    I also think ilvl squish should have happened because the difference between a full dreadful geared player with a 463 weapon against a full malevolent geared player with any slight non-pvp weapon upgrade is huge. But that's a different topic.

    Good point treelife. I think removal of PvP power would fix this though (if hasn't stopped effecting healing already that is). Heals all around do need a nerf on top of the removal of PvP power though. That's an issue that wouldn't really be effected positively nor negatively with my proposed change.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2012-10-28 at 07:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  2. #2
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    It would lead to a point where you don't do enough damage to kill Healers or anyone with a healer, though.

    Also you're complaining about a gap between Full Dreadfull vs full Malevolent geared players, yet you want people to get X rating to get the gear? A lot of people don't have the time, so it just wouldn't happen. Making the gap even bigger.
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2012-10-28 at 07:02 AM.

  3. #3
    I'm not sure PvPers would want PvE gear to be effective (maybe even more effective) in PvP, and vice versa.

  4. #4
    You can't kill fully PvP geared healers as it is already. If you made damage output even weaker healers would become even more immortal than they are now.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo83x View Post
    You can't kill fully PvP geared healers as it is already. If you made damage output even weaker healers would become even more immortal than they are now.
    As it is right now full PvP power effectively makes the overall reduction due to resilience about 30% instead of the baseline 40%. The 10%, while helpful, doesn't address the problem with healing. Even now PvP power doesn't provide enough damage to overcome the absurdity of healing.

    Healing will also not be so absurd once PvP power is removed as their getting that added benefit. Removal of PvP stats would effectively reduce PvP healing by >20%.

    Healers are an entirely different problem that should be also be addressed in a separate manner (such as across the board nerfs to healing in arenas and bgs).
    Last edited by Flaks; 2012-10-28 at 07:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  6. #6
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    But that leaves world PvP out.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    But that leaves world PvP out.
    Like said earlier, removal of PvP power would nerf PvP healing across the board by 25+%.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I'm not sure PvPers would want PvE gear to be effective (maybe even more effective) in PvP, and vice versa.
    Yet PvP gear has 6 stats, all the stats PvE gear has PLUS two more:
    Dreadful Gladiator's Drape of Prowess, item level 458:
    717 stamina
    478 Intellect
    280 Haste
    342 Mastery
    220 PvP Power
    220 PvP resilience

    VS Cloak of Ancient Curses, item level 458:
    717 Stamina
    478 Intellect
    346 Haste
    272 Hit

    How come PvP gear has everything PvE gear has, and more? I have had to replace several of my heroic dungeon items because the Malevolent gear was better on all fronts, it was a complete upgrade in all stats, which is just bullshit.

    Either remove 1-2 stats from PvP gear, or add PvE power and PvE resilience to make PvP gear worthless in PvE. Or just let the gear be the same...
    Last edited by Lora Twinblade; 2012-10-28 at 07:23 AM. Reason: typo

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    It would lead to a point where you don't do enough damage to kill Healers or anyone with a healer, though.

    Also you're complaining about a gap between Full Dreadfull vs full Malevolent geared players, yet you want people to get X rating to get the gear? A lot of people don't have the time, so it just wouldn't happen. Making the gap even bigger.
    The issue I was talking about is different. I'm talking about an ilvl squish. As it is, the formula for ilvl vs. stat gain seems to be exponential. Which is why each gain in ilvl yields greater stats than before. The squish would make it so that this gap isn't so big. As such, a dreadful geared player would be able to compete with a malevolent geared player if he is moderately more skilled. Right now, a dreadful geared player has to massively outskill and outplay his malevolent geared opponent to beat them thus presenting a blatant imbalance.

    The rating is just so it isn't tBC all over again where PvE players felt forced to do PvP for PvE gear due to it being an easier avenue.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 07:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Yet PvP gear has 6 stats, all the stats PvE gear has PLUS two more:
    Dreadful Gladiator's Drape of Prowess
    717 stamina
    478 Intellect
    280 Haste
    342 Mastery
    220 PvP Power
    220 PvP resilience

    VS Claok of Ancient Curses:
    717 Stamina
    478 Intellect
    346 Haste
    272 Hit

    How come PvP gear has everything PvE gear has, and more? I have had to replace several of my heroic dungeon items because the Malevolent gear was better on all fronts, it was a complete upgrade in all stats, which is just bullshit.

    Either remove 1-2 stats from PvP gear, or add PvE power and PvE resilience to make PvP gear worthless in PvE. Or just let the gear be the same...
    Let's not make this into a PvE vs. PvP debate. As it is, PvP gear is intentionally made to be quite a few ilvl lower than it's PvE counterparts. You can very well compare the malevolent tier 1 weapons to lfr weapons even with the pvp power considered in the comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  10. #10
    no pvp stats...on pvp gear....do you even see what you are saying?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Let's not make this into a PvE vs. PvP debate. As it is, PvP gear is intentionally made to be quite a few ilvl lower than it's PvE counterparts. You can very well compare the malevolent tier 1 weapons to lfr weapons even with the pvp power considered in the comparison.
    It isn't lower level though, the items I compared has the exact same item lvl.

    Malovent is 483, normal raiding gear is 489, hardly enough to compensate for the fact that PvP gear also has PvP power and resilience.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bklutz View Post
    no pvp stats...on pvp gear....do you even see what you are saying?
    Please read the thread before assuming anything. This would effectively address the two major issues of pvp burst damage and healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  13. #13
    Going back to ratings and removing PvP stats, just means that everyone can just do PvE and obtain gear, with the added bonus of no huge grind for the points, not actually having to PvP and no rating requirement. Don't really get how thats meant to solve the problem. I do find this current season to be the biggest mess balance wise for a long time, but i don't think this is the right way to solve it.

    The entire point of PvP power, as far as i recall, was to make sure PvP gear was the best for PvP, as it should be. I think the bigger problem at hand is, A, Resilence could be better than it currently is. B, The extreme burst classes need to be toned down, only in PvP (just make the abilities weaker vs players, but not against non players). C, Lastly, there needs to be some actual trade off for healers so they don't become unkillable, like last season.

    Forgot to add, i don't agree with PvP gear being used in PvE, but thats another story.
    Last edited by Xucuroz; 2012-10-28 at 07:33 AM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Like said earlier, removal of PvP power would nerf PvP healing across the board by 25+%.
    PvP Power already has no effect for healing outside of Battlegrounds/Arenas. Otherwise healers could use pvp gear in instances/world bosses to heal for more than if they were in next-tier pve gear.

    PvP Power is indeed a strong stat and I would not be surprised to see a nerf to it in future seasons, but the burst problem in pvp is not a product of pvp power, it is because of balance issues. Even without pvp power reducing resilience down to 30ish%, you'd still see hunters warriors and frost mages killing people in globals.

    And as said already, pvp power was also put on gear to make it more desirable than pve gear in a pvp setting. Equal tier pve gear has a high ilvl than pvp gear so it is more desirable than pvp gear in a pve setting.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Xucuroz View Post
    B, The extreme burst classes need to be toned down, only in PvP (just make the abilities weaker vs players, but not against non players).
    "It's not our option of first resort because it's not intuitive for players and it means anytime we want to make balance adjustments, we must change two sets of numbers."
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1500?page=2#22

    Ghostcrawler's response to that, I really disagree with him because it feels natural to let an ability, say Shadow Bolt, deal different base damages depending on if the target is a player or an NPC, and if anything it would be a LOT easier to balance the game if you worked with two numbers, not harder. Then you could nerf a class/spec for PvE purposes without it affecting PvP, and the other way around.
    Last edited by Lora Twinblade; 2012-10-28 at 07:38 AM. Reason: typo

  16. #16
    TLDR:
    1. QQ i cannot get free pvp epics.
    2. Genius comparing blue dungeon gear (instead of raid gear) vs epic pvp gear.
    3. QQ healers cannot be killed bcs avarege joe cannot use ccchain on healer.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    It isn't lower level though, the items I compared has the exact same item lvl.

    Malovent is 483, normal raiding gear is 489, hardly enough to compensate for the fact that PvP gear also has PvP power and resilience.
    Well you could step it up and start doing raids, where the pve gear is equal tier to those doing arenas and rated battlegrounds. PvP Power and Resilience is absolutely worthless in a pve environment, so while using a malevolent piece might be better than a heroic dungeon piece or LFR piece (and let's face it, LFR is basically the same difficulty as a heroic dungeon), it will always lose out to a piece of raid gear of equal tier.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Madus View Post
    TLDR:
    1. QQ i cannot get free pvp epics.
    2. Genius comparing blue dungeon gear (instead of raid gear) vs epic pvp gear.
    3. QQ healers cannot be killed bcs avarege joe cannot use ccchain on healer.
    If you're reffering to me on the second one, 6 item level difference is not enough to justify "well PvP gear has lower item lvl in comparison" when PvP gear also has PvP Power and PvP resilience.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Baenesur's Avatar
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    I agree on one thing here - The burst is too high.
    I don't get the point where people starts to say that healers are impossible to kill. 2x DPS teams can faceroll a healer in a global or two, while Healer/DPS vs Healer/DPS games are a tad longer, but healers are getting killed. Especially after the flat 15% nerf to healing in PvP scenarios!

    Some healing classes are better at handling an incomming burst than other healers, and some DPS classes are better at bursting down a healer than other DPS classes.

    That's just how the game is - Not all classes are the same, and it would be damn boring if they were.
    But as I see it now, healing is fine, but the burst some classes have is the major problem here. Nearly any setup of 2x DPS can global a healer in my opinion, and it really only takes a bit of coordination to bring down a healer a Healer/DPS comp.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    How come PvP gear has everything PvE gear has, and more? I have had to replace several of my heroic dungeon items because the Malevolent gear was better on all fronts, it was a complete upgrade in all stats, which is just bullshit.
    And how much bullshit is it that PvP has _always_ been Blizzards second priority? You have basically always been forced to do PvE to be competetive in PvP. Especially for weapons.
    In TBC you could gear up with PvP gear before you started anything else, welfare epics as it was called. But endgame PvE gear was still a must if you wanted to be competetive.
    And now you can have PvP gear that is equal or slightly better than the current PvE gear, and it's bullshit? Yeah... no.

    Do you wanna compare each expansion with content and gear? You'll win every single expansion, every single patch with a new raid etc.

    Don't call it bullshit.

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