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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    I'm not, but I am wearing two pieces of PvP gear in my PvE set because they were a lot better on all fronts than the respective PvE pieces I had.

    The main issue I feel is that, say that you have a full set of PvP gear and enter PvE. You will not be missing out on any stats at all, have everything that a raid set would give you, except it's item level is slightly lower. Unnoticable unless you are progressing on a boss and only getting it to 1 %.

    Comparing this scenario to a person entering PvP in full raid gear, he will get slaughtered because he has no resilience and power.

    Have I made myself clear enough now? Or do I have to attempt to simplify it even more?

    @Baphomette, I agree that the system is perhaps better now than before, but it's far from perfect and could still use some changes.

    A player in 483 PvP gear can top meters in LFR, hell green geared goblins top meters in LFR. In a raid, or a heroic raid you will not see any PvP geared players at the top of any meters.

    With that being said, a player in epic PvE gear can win arena games, top random bg meters, but will get his head split open in high rated PvP play. You can watch vids and clips of players with old weapons fighting 2200 players, some hunters rating not even using a ranged weapon. Skill> gear for the most part, but there is a cut off to that.

    If you are in a normal raid or even a heroic raid, you will be using all types of gear you can get till you can clear content that has better gear for you. You may start by using PvP gear, but it will get replaced.

    If you are in a PvP setting you may use PvE gear till you get your PvP set. You will be using a PvE weapon for a few weeks. I don't really get what the deal here is. You have a lot of different ways to gear, you are able to swap in other types of gear till you can focus on your type. We have a difference in how gear is earned, one is gated through progression of content, the other by progression of ranked play.

  2. #142
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The reason those PvE items were mandatory was because they provided benefits that weren't flat stats like any trinket nowadays. Which is why there's no QQ about pve gear in pvp right now. And why there wasn't QQ about pve gear in pvp in s5, s6, s7, s9 or s10.

    The trinkets available from PvP right now are equivalent to those available from PvE. If they continue to not add gimmicky PvE items it'll be fine.

    One way or another, if pvp stats were completely removed, we could actually see an influx of those types of items through pvp instead of blizzard wants.
    The problem is, that during the last raid cycles of an expansion, they like to branch out and try those "gimmicky" effects for trinkets.

    While I don't necessarily agree that PVP power is needed for PVP gear, something is. It's not the most elegant solution, but it helps the PVE gear vs PVP gear debate. Honestly, I think they should make resilience scale a tiny bit better and make PVP Power scale a little worse.

  3. #143
    Banned JhanZ's Avatar
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    PvP power completely ruined PvP

    Don't play for a while/started too late? You are completely and utterly screwed. Good luck PvPing for 4+ weeks until you can get an upgraded T1 weapon to be *decent* and not get massively slaughtered by geared players. Good luck PvPing for another 5+ weeks to be able to purchase a T2 weapon to be on par with... oh wait, they still have better gear ON top of upgrading it so they are still massively ahead of you and only dramatically outperforming a person will yield in victory.

    Grats, this is by far the most terrible PvP design I've ever witnessed in any game. It just keeps getting worse.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by JhanZ View Post
    PvP power completely ruined PvP

    Don't play for a while/started too late? You are completely and utterly screwed. Good luck PvPing for 4+ weeks until you can get an upgraded T1 weapon to be *decent* and not get massively slaughtered by geared players. Good luck PvPing for another 5+ weeks to be able to purchase a T2 weapon to be on par with... oh wait, they still have better gear ON top of upgrading it so they are still massively ahead of you and only dramatically outperforming a person will yield in victory.

    Grats, this is by far the most terrible PvP design I've ever witnessed in any game. It just keeps getting worse.
    PvP power isn't as bad as you claim, starting late in the season its natural that you have to use your skill to overcome the gear disadvantage, but what really screwed people up is that you could do upgrades too. My monk started when 5.1 came out, I'm in T2 Elite with only 4 pieces of Malevolent and yes I have to work harder than the rest not only to overcome the skill cap of the monk class but also being squishier than others, but know also that you can upgrade Dreadful gears which makes it not much a difference between 1/1 Dreadful and 0/2 Malevolent.

    If you ever PvP seriously you would know that PvP Resillence is the better stat. Getting blown up while you gem PvP Power is to be expected cause you be doing the same to others who are gemmed PvP Power. Only reason one would go PvP power is for Rated BGs and only if you are a range.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by JhanZ View Post
    PvP power completely ruined PvP

    Don't play for a while/started too late? You are completely and utterly screwed. Good luck PvPing for 4+ weeks until you can get an upgraded T1 weapon to be *decent* and not get massively slaughtered by geared players. Good luck PvPing for another 5+ weeks to be able to purchase a T2 weapon to be on par with... oh wait, they still have better gear ON top of upgrading it so they are still massively ahead of you and only dramatically outperforming a person will yield in victory.

    Grats, this is by far the most terrible PvP design I've ever witnessed in any game. It just keeps getting worse.

    power didn't ruin anything, the scaling of it compared to resilience is definitely questionable and starting late that is all on gear upgrade not power.
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  6. #146
    All removing pvp stats would do is benefit high end raiders. You'd end up in the same boat as now or possibly even worse.

  7. #147
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    Dont change the stats on PvP gear now, finaly we're not forced to do HC raiding to get trinket and weapons.
    The only thing I realy hate by the new gear is upgrades. Makes the difference between a player that joined mid season and a player that have been playing all season so huge.. Cant realy understand why they added the upgrade system to PvP gear, neither to PvE for that matter. The system worked fine the other expansions where you could spend valor/conq on gems/crafting stuff. Or convert conq to valor and sell BoEs.
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    Dont change the stats on PvP gear now, finaly we're not forced to do HC raiding to get trinket and weapons.
    The only thing I realy hate by the new gear is upgrades. Makes the difference between a player that joined mid season and a player that have been playing all season so huge.. Cant realy understand why they added the upgrade system to PvP gear, neither to PvE for that matter. The system worked fine the other expansions where you could spend valor/conq on gems/crafting stuff. Or convert conq to valor and sell BoEs.
    They added it so players that accrue more points in a season than they can spend actually have something to spend them on besides mats to sell on the ah. It also gives players incentives to keep playing once they have all of their gear if the next content patch is delayed for some odd reason.
    Last edited by Barnabas; 2013-01-05 at 04:30 AM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    They added it so players that accrue more points in a season than they can spend actually have something to spend them on besides mats to sell on the ah. It also gives players incentives to keep playing once they have all of their gear if the next content patch is delayed for some odd reason.
    there are other ways to keep people playing other then increasing gear gap situations.
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  10. #150
    I still have yet to see a valid argument on why pve gear can't be exceptionally powerful for pvp WHEN PVP ITSELF PROVIDES REWARDS THE EQUAL THE PVE GEAR IN TERMS OF DIFFICULTY TO OBTAIN AND POWER.

    If the above occurs, then there would be no need for pvp stats outside of baseline resilience. No pvp power, no extra pvp gems, no need for random debuffs to healing, no discrepancy between an ilvl 516 pve weapon showing up against and ilvl 498 pvp weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  11. #151
    The Patient Kuul's Avatar
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    Comes to mind why there is even PvP gear you need to grind? Would make PvP so much interesting if everyone was on equal level when it comes to gear. Or at least the armor should be same for everyone, make trinkets/weapons upgradable to keep ppl grinding the shit.

    Or remove the Conquest cap from players who are behind in the gear (=obtained conquest points in season). Basicly if you join in middle of the season you still have chances to catch up people in gear, sure you gotta nolife the arena but you still have chances. In the end getting normal conquest gear doesn't mean you have achieved anything incredible since you can get it from doing regular BG's also.

    Would make PvP so much more enjoyable when the skill actually would matter, just saying.

  12. #152
    Completely agree. But I think that's the least likely thing they're willing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I still have yet to see a valid argument on why pve gear can't be exceptionally powerful for pvp WHEN PVP ITSELF PROVIDES REWARDS THE EQUAL THE PVE GEAR IN TERMS OF DIFFICULTY TO OBTAIN AND POWER.

    If the above occurs, then there would be no need for pvp stats outside of baseline resilience. No pvp power, no extra pvp gems, no need for random debuffs to healing, no discrepancy between an ilvl 516 pve weapon showing up against and ilvl 498 pvp weapon.
    didn't play last season i'm guessing?

    2200 lock? but no cunning sorry we have a 1600 lock with cunning, if you didn't have cunning you weren't invited to rbgs, and for lock/spriest it would be 30-50% damage increase PASSIVELY, the joys of a orange dagger rogue with vial globalilng you in a opener with procs up.

    ya no valid argument about pve gear in pvp.
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  14. #154
    Much easier solution is to increase base resiliance. Dunno why OP suggests such a drastic measures...

  15. #155
    Stood in the Fire Wootylicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Burst is a major problem. PvP gear only makes it worse.

    Contrary to popular belief, more PvP gear does not address the burst issue. In fact, it exacerbates it further due to there being more PvP power on gear than PvP resilience. As such, a full PvP geared player will do more damage to another fully PvP geared player than they would without any PvP gear at all. In fact, as it is right now the difference between a fresh PvP player and someone decked out is more massive than ever before.

    Thus, I propose that with the advent of baseline PvP resilience, we should consider telling Blizzard to remove PvP stats from PvP gear.

    To address ilvl issues, I'd say that random battlegrounds should necessitate a slightly greater grind and provide LFR quality loot. Malevolent gladiator gear should be about equal to normal mode gear but I'd say should be gated behind ratings once again; nothing substantial, just something like a min 1600 requirement for a pvp weapon (recall it used to be 1800). Elite gear should once again provide greater stats equivalent to heroic raid gear. The gating involved in PvP already ensures that high ranked players will not get their gear before heroic raiders; this will just make sure that the vice versa is true as well.

    I also think ilvl squish should have happened because the difference between a full dreadful geared player with a 463 weapon against a full malevolent geared player with any slight non-pvp weapon upgrade is huge. But that's a different topic.

    Good point treelife. I think removal of PvP power would fix this though (if hasn't stopped effecting healing already that is). Heals all around do need a nerf on top of the removal of PvP power though. That's an issue that wouldn't really be effected positively nor negatively with my proposed change.
    = thinks gear gap is too great, says making gear gap bigger by addin ratings back fixes it

    you sir..

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuul View Post
    Comes to mind why there is even PvP gear you need to grind? Would make PvP so much interesting if everyone was on equal level when it comes to gear. Or at least the armor should be same for everyone, make trinkets/weapons upgradable to keep ppl grinding the shit.

    Or remove the Conquest cap from players who are behind in the gear (=obtained conquest points in season). Basicly if you join in middle of the season you still have chances to catch up people in gear, sure you gotta nolife the arena but you still have chances. In the end getting normal conquest gear doesn't mean you have achieved anything incredible since you can get it from doing regular BG's also.

    Would make PvP so much more enjoyable when the skill actually would matter, just saying.
    The part about giving everyone the same gear from the start in PvP is something they have said they dont want, this is a MMO game, and gear progression is a HUGE part of it.

    They could solve it by something along this:
    Each week you get a conq cap of 1800 (Just like now, that you can increase by gaining higher ratings), so you'd been playing at sub 1.5k rating for 4 weeks you'd have obtained 7200 conquest points. Lets say some dude started with PvP in the 3rd week of the season, meaning by todays system he'd lost out on 5400 conquest points (Thats a huge gap.). What if they implied a system that when this person joined the 3rd week he'd had a 5400 cap that week, then proceed as normal? That way he can choose to win 30 arena matches that week to obtain it all and thus not have a gear difference, but be at the same lvl as any person still playing at the "normal cap".
    I'm sorry if this wasnt properly put out, I'm Norwegian and had a few problems getting my point out here.. But to make it clear - a person that is skilled and are able to obtain a 2.2k rating the first week will ALWAYS have a advantage over someone joining mid season, as he will have a higher conq cap from week two.
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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    The part about giving everyone the same gear from the start in PvP is something they have said they dont want, this is a MMO game, and gear progression is a HUGE part of it.

    They could solve it by something along this:
    Each week you get a conq cap of 1800 (Just like now, that you can increase by gaining higher ratings), so you'd been playing at sub 1.5k rating for 4 weeks you'd have obtained 7200 conquest points. Lets say some dude started with PvP in the 3rd week of the season, meaning by todays system he'd lost out on 5400 conquest points (Thats a huge gap.). What if they implied a system that when this person joined the 3rd week he'd had a 5400 cap that week, then proceed as normal? That way he can choose to win 30 arena matches that week to obtain it all and thus not have a gear difference, but be at the same lvl as any person still playing at the "normal cap".
    I'm sorry if this wasnt properly put out, I'm Norwegian and had a few problems getting my point out here.. But to make it clear - a person that is skilled and are able to obtain a 2.2k rating the first week will ALWAYS have a advantage over someone joining mid season, as he will have a higher conq cap from week two.
    Yeah, would be cool to have that higher cap if you are behind the points.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    PvP power and resilience has nu use in PvE no, but the PvP gear has the exact same amount of stats as PvE gear. In the past PvP items used to have resilience instead of a secondary stat such as haste, mastery, crit or hit. But now they have two secondary stats just as PvE gear, on top of their PvP power and resilience, and almost if not equal item lvl.
    Solution to your QQing get hc pve gear and you won't have the problem, problem solved

  19. #159
    I used to pvp A LOT...in vanilla and every other expansion. I tried one pvp so far in MoP and never have again. PVP stats have gotten ridiculous. PvP in WoW is like a completely different game now. You CAN NOT WEAR PVE GEAR TO PVP. <---this has broken the game severely!!! Back in vanilla, rogues wanted to get the perditions blade so they could go destroy people in pvp. PVE and PVP were connected and it make the game extremely fun. It caused world pvp because people wanted to try out their new gear from slaying Ragnaros on actual players!!

    Now if you want to pvp you have to have grind battlegrounds and get a whole new set thats exactly the same as everyone else. If you try to use your pve gear you'll get demolished. Go back to the system where PVP gear had more STAMINA but slightly less offensive stats. It was amazing back in the day when you'd have priests stacking stamina and dodge % and all that good stuff.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by lobomuerto11 View Post
    I used to pvp A LOT...in vanilla and every other expansion. I tried one pvp so far in MoP and never have again. PVP stats have gotten ridiculous. PvP in WoW is like a completely different game now. You CAN NOT WEAR PVE GEAR TO PVP. <---this has broken the game severely!!! Back in vanilla, rogues wanted to get the perditions blade so they could go destroy people in pvp. PVE and PVP were connected and it make the game extremely fun. It caused world pvp because people wanted to try out their new gear from slaying Ragnaros on actual players!!

    Now if you want to pvp you have to have grind battlegrounds and get a whole new set thats exactly the same as everyone else. If you try to use your pve gear you'll get demolished. Go back to the system where PVP gear had more STAMINA but slightly less offensive stats. It was amazing back in the day when you'd have priests stacking stamina and dodge % and all that good stuff.
    And force people to raid? No.

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