GC on Rogues in PvP (Watercooler 31/10/12)

[shalnath]

I think what he is said is pretty appropriate. This of course assuming they actually do bring the other classes down to earth and solve our mobility woes, but I'm not holding my breath.

We really don't need that much to bring us in line with other classes and I think you guys are asking for things that would put us over the top. I know you want rogues to be more fun too, but that's just not going to happen this expansion and you shouldn't expect every blue post you see to address that.

[Viradiance]

I think what he is said is pretty appropriate. This of course assuming they actually do bring the other classes down to earth and solve our mobility woes, but I'm not holding my breath.

We really don't need that much to bring us in line with other classes and I think you guys are asking for things that would put us over the top. I know you want rogues to be more fun too, but that's just not going to happen this expansion and you shouldn't expect every blue post you see to address that.

Every time I see you post, it's so heartbreakingly optimistic. I like that. I like you.

But it makes me depressed.

[Raldazzar]

as assassination I feel the damage is about right. lovely during shadow blades period. the problem i feel is its all too.. passive. my current tactic is 5 pt rupture/dp stack etc, (reforged mastery) then put them into a heavy kidney and let them bleed out.

I just feel like, its not fun to pop damage cds. maybe thats just me, but ive always loved the fact that the cd's we use are utility/offensive. prior to this, only a handful of times have we had damage cd's that were crucial, shadowdance,HARP etc.. I would love for more of our damage to be frontloaded from our actual strikes, and our cd's to be based around our utility.

overall, blizz has a funny zig zag way with their balances, just look at mages. so ill wait till I read some more patch notes, I do hope these changes will make it in to the patch, as it stands, my warrior is simply making more sense, better utility (disarms, stun, aoe stun, ranged stun, fear etc..) and damage that is ridiculous (admittedly cooldown stacking) -

I love rogue, and I cant wait for her to be fixed, but as it stands, even getting my cap each week is painfully slow as im losing more then im winning (Its not a l2p issue, im average at best.)

[Deleted]

So what he's saying is that rogues are fine and the other classes are out of balance.

Grats, rogues, at the speed GC is implementing proper balance in the game, you will be fine for real around the end of this expansion.

[shalnath]

Every time I see you post, it's so heartbreakingly optimistic. I like that. I like you.

But it makes me depressed.

Well, I find it easier to just enjoy the game if I'm optimistic about it. It helps me better myself as a player when I'm not making up excuses about my class being undertuned and boring when I lose a match or preform poorly on the meters. Basically I've just accepted that we're not going to change much this expansion and we should all just get used to it sooner rather than later.

That being said, I still find myself logging in less and less everyday.

[Verain]

I'm still not sure if they consider it a PROBLEM that everyone got better versions of the rogue kit.

Does he get the thing where we give up huge amounts of damage to kidney shot, because they "shifted damage to finishers"? KS should be doing like at least half the damage of the evis or envenom you WOULD have pressed.

Does he understand that our cooldowns are pretty tarded these days?

Why do hunters have better stealth?

Why can a resto druid stealth faster than a rogue? Than even a rogue who takes a talent whose only purpose is to make us faster in stealth?


Why do we have to glyph stuff that is baseline for other people? Get off blind's nuts. Blind should clear dots when you use it. Baseline that glyph. Baseline adrenaline rush glyph, because why is an unambiguous dps increase a glyph?



A warrior can shockwave and eat well over half my health in two globals. I need to write a dissertation with my moves before KS is anything but a dumb joke.

I know we are in line for buffs. But I can't even get a damned RBG group with my friends, because no one wants to bring rogues, and rogues are simply not threatening.


It's like all we have now is CRZs.

"i don't need to close a gap / when i one shot your alt straight out of sap"

[Rio]

Rio: Doubtful it will change as the season progresses, its an educated guess but mastery wont really go up by 20-30% with epic pvp gear.

---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 08:01 PM ----------

Also I am not sure now whether mastery is incorporated into envenom as it used to be a poison=nature damage. Now I believe it scales only AP as the formula indicates.

Why would we get a 30-50% increase this season? Lol. That's not what I'm talking about.

I meant we won't see stats like that until Season 15~ or the end of the expansion. I guess this is your first transition into a new expansion?

[Bozzy]

all I hope for is like *please Shs for sub spec* *please Shs for sub spec* *please Shs for sub spec* *please Shs for sub spec* *please Shs for sub spec* ...

[Deleted]

Well, I find it easier to just enjoy the game if I'm optimistic about it. It helps me better myself as a player when I'm not making up excuses about my class being undertuned and boring when I lose a match or preform poorly on the meters. Basically I've just accepted that we're not going to change much this expansion and we should all just get used to it sooner rather than later.

That being said, I still find myself logging in less and less everyday.

It's disheartening to know that you have to work your ass off to an extreme degree, just to perform "adequately" (speaking of PvP that is) while other classes have to work less to do damage, stay on target, or stay alive. Popping cooldowns and pressing a few buttons to do damage or just using one or more defensive cooldowns to stay alive doesn't compare to having to juggle several buffs and debuffs (most of which are ineffective by themselves) and still not doing any damage or self-healing...

It's very depressing to see the situation we're in and not being able to do anything but sigh, accept things as they are, and continue to be free honor.

[Imbashiethz]

On misery (biggest battlegrp in europe) there are no rogues above 2k. Highest I found was 1960. This is probably because most rogues dont even try though, I believe rogues can get 2.2 with the right partners, but a BM hunter could get 2.4 in the time it takes a rogue to get 2.1. Rogues are definetly not fine. Hydra, Ziqo & kalimist stuck at 2.2 with 50% win/loss. 20 r1 titles combined. Rogue & disc is fine.

[Kortiah]

Yesterday I went in Arenas for my weekly cap.

Got a feral druid in kitty form stunlocked and bursted with all my CDs.

I got the 502+489 raid daggers, 5500 PvP Power, he ended up at 70%. Yes, SEVENTY percent of his HP. I think the most I could get was 20k with a Backstab during Find Weakness.
At the end of the stunlock, he just pop'd his ROAR macro with Incarnation/Vigil/Whatever, triple critted me for 85k and won the arena.

His mate was a prot pally backpeddling with 420k HP and did nothing the whole arena (not even a stun).

I'm never touching my rogue in Arenas again until SEVERE dmg buff.


(Yes, I checked his armory, his gear was shit.)

[Deleted]

I'm still not sure if they consider it a PROBLEM that everyone got better versions of the rogue kit.

Does he get the thing where we give up huge amounts of damage to kidney shot, because they "shifted damage to finishers"? KS should be doing like at least half the damage of the evis or envenom you WOULD have pressed.

I've been thinking about Kidney Shot a lot recently, and I simply don't understand why it comes with a heavy CP cost attached to it. Yes, it's one of the strongest stuns in the game, with one of the lowest cooldowns... But it's also our one and only stun(unbreakable combat stun that is). It's the stun we use when we're focusing down a target; so why does it come at such a hefty price when every other stun is always at max duration, at no cost? Having that price was perfectly defensible back when Backstab was our main source of damage, and combo points were expendable and mainly used for utilitarian purposes, but it doesn't seem fitting in the current PvP toolkit of a rogue, were combo points mean everything.

[Colt_Darkfire]

I've been thinking about Kidney Shot a lot recently, and I simply don't understand why it comes with a heavy CP cost attached to it. Yes, it's one of the strongest stuns in the game, with one of the lowest cooldowns... But it's also our one and only stun(unbreakable combat stun that is). It's the stun we use when we're focusing down a target; so why does it come at such a hefty price when every other stun is always at max duration, at no cost? Having that price was perfectly defensible back when Backstab was our main source of damage, and combo points were expendable and mainly used for utilitarian purposes, but it doesn't seem fitting in the current PvP toolkit of a rogue, were combo points mean everything.

I agree with this when a warrior can pick up a talent with the exact same CD as Kidney shot thats only 2 seconds less does a large amount of damage damage and is a multi-stun.
with rogue having all our kit be better on every other class but ourselves in all respects especially with all our damage loaded into passive we have little to no burst.

[Kortiah]

I've been thinking about Kidney Shot a lot recently, and I simply don't understand why it comes with a heavy CP cost attached to it. Yes, it's one of the strongest stuns in the game, with one of the lowest cooldowns... But it's also our one and only stun(unbreakable combat stun that is).

Yes it seems to be outmatched by many other stuns in the game right now ...

Rogue : Kidney Shot, 20sec CD, 6sec duration with 5cp, costs no energy because of Relentless strikes, can have a 10% bonus damage but make your Blind cost energy
Mage : Deep freeze, 30sec CD, ranged, not even proccing ICD, comes with a bonus crit during its duration, costs mana but meh ...
Warrior : Shockwave, 20sec CD, semi-ranged, AE stun 4sec, crits for 60-70k during cooldowns

[Deleted]

Yes it seems to be outmatched by many other stuns in the game right now ...

Rogue : Kidney Shot, 20sec CD, 6sec duration with 5cp, costs no energy because of Relentless strikes, can have a 10% bonus damage but make your Blind cost energy
Mage : Deep freeze, 30sec CD, ranged, not even proccing ICD, comes with a bonus crit during its duration, costs mana but meh ...
Warrior : Shockwave, 20sec CD, semi-ranged, AE stun 4sec, crits for 60-70k during cooldowns

Indeed. The cost is simply indefensible at this stage.
One of our strengths as rogues is our superior ability to control opponents via cc's... It was, I should rather say, and I'd very much like to have that back.

[SpaceJam]

Spoken like a true asshole.

Fixed. =]....

[Viradiance]

That being said, I still find myself logging in less and less everyday.

The only thing keeping me here is that I'm mildly entertained by roleplay. Better than nothing at least.

[rt7]

I would take shockwave over kidney punch given the choice, I've been crit for 40k+ by it even with full pvp gear, and it costs absolutely nothing, not even rage

[Deleted]

On misery (biggest battlegrp in europe) there are no rogues above 2k. Highest I found was 1960. This is probably because most rogues dont even try though, I believe rogues can get 2.2 with the right partners, but a BM hunter could get 2.4 in the time it takes a rogue to get 2.1. Rogues are definetly not fine. Hydra, Ziqo & kalimist stuck at 2.2 with 50% win/loss. 20 r1 titles combined. Rogue & disc is fine.

To be fair, misery/blutdurst/cyclone/cataclysme are all pretty much the same size judging by the number of 3v3 teams, with blackout and that russian realmpool lagging behind by some 5-10%. But you do definitely have a point. After a quick glance I'd put the number of 2.2+ rogues at around 10-12 from those and a few more from the smaller realmpools. Compared to hundreds of warriors and hunters -.-

And judging by the lastest numbers from the US across all pools, we're looking at around 30+ rogues WORLDWIDE who could currently buy T2 weapons.

When people who used to be 2.7-3k+ rating have to play their asses off just to get weapons, something is terribly wrong. Just watch woundmans stream ("okay, POPPING EVERY SINGLE COOLDOWN I HAVE, MASSIVE DAMAGE" -> 10k crits, 50k envenom, lulz).

[Moxi]

Yes it seems to be outmatched by many other stuns in the game right now ...

Rogue : Kidney Shot, 20sec CD, 6sec duration with 5cp, costs no energy because of Relentless strikes, can have a 10% bonus damage but make your Blind cost energy
Mage : Deep freeze, 30sec CD, ranged, not even proccing ICD, comes with a bonus crit during its duration, costs mana but meh ...
Warrior : Shockwave, 20sec CD, semi-ranged, AE stun 4sec, crits for 60-70k during cooldowns

Kidney still costs energy, it just gets refunded (worth noting because waiting that 1 second DOES matter).
Also wanted to mention it can be dodged/parried.

If you really want to get depressed, start comparing other things too:

Preparation (Talent), 5 minute cooldown, (Defensive abilities only.)
Cold Snap (Talent), 3 minute cooldown, 30% heal, usable in stuns.
Readiness, 5 minute cooldown, ALL abilities.

or

Vanish, 3 minute cooldown.
Displacer Beast (Talent), 30 second cooldown (Also blinks).
Feign Death, 30 second cooldown.
Disengage, 25s cooldown.

Makes me sad.