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  1. #101
    The thing is, assuming I would survive! Assuming I don't get instant-rape-eaten! I honestly don't think I have the burst/general output I need to down a moving, conscious, and experienced target. I can see why certain classes have out-of-control damage output, but I don't understand how we apparently have "sufficient" output. I'm basically a third wheel, more or less just there to stun and/or blind a target so my companions can take care of business.

    If everyone gets nerfed down to our level, we don't become more useful. Everyone else just become increasingly useless... Until we reach a point where arena matches take infinitely long because no one deals any damage, any comps involving healers always end in draws, and people simply stop dying to anything other than stupidity...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Everyone else just become increasingly useless... Until we reach a point where arena matches take infinitely long because no one deals any damage, any comps involving healers always end in draws, and people simply stop dying to anything other than stupidity...
    Just how Arenas used to be and are supposed to be, besides the healing thing.

    This 'die in 2-3 seconds' is ridiculous.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Rio View Post
    Just how Arenas used to be and are supposed to be, besides the healing thing.

    This 'die in 2-3 seconds' is ridiculous.
    I agree and disagree.
    Most cooldowns, be they offensive or defensive, will generally be popped during the first 2-5 minutes of a fight. That's about the right amount of time an arena match should take. It shouldn't take any longer, due to a total lack of output, nor should it take less time due to a massive amount of output; it should hit that sweet spot of time; I.e. the time it normally takes to separate the enemy, cc'ing the targets or the healers, and then landing the finishing blow. If you don't have the raw damage necessary to actually down a target during that small burst window, you're fucked, and the fight will be prolonged unnecessarily...

    In the case of rogues, our damage simply isn't sufficient outside of our massive 2-3 minute cooldowns and Find Weakness. Hell, even with these cooldowns up and running, our damage is still "meh"-ish at best. If everyone would do as little damage as we currently are, fights wouldn't take 2 seconds. They wouldn't take 2 minutes. They'd take 20+ minutes...

    But alas, our pathetic output is not so much caused by "imbalance between classes" but rather due to the dated core mechanics of our class itself.

  4. #104
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    rather due to the dated core mechanics of our class itself.
    What exactly with rogue mechanics is dated and not working? CPs? Energy?

    No, none of these are core mechancis that no longer work. We could maybe use a change in energy costs, and a slight nerf to SnD with a buff to other abilities to make the playstyle more interesting, but none of that has anything to do with dated mechanics. If you wanna see dated mechanics then look at old rage, old totems, old blessings, that shit was dated mechanics that they replaced.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    What exactly with rogue mechanics is dated and not working? CPs? Energy?

    No, none of these are core mechancis that no longer work. We could maybe use a change in energy costs, and a slight nerf to SnD with a buff to other abilities to make the playstyle more interesting, but none of that has anything to do with dated mechanics. If you wanna see dated mechanics then look at old rage, old totems, old blessings, that shit was dated mechanics that they replaced.
    yep, I still love the rogue for its interesting ressource system. Not just energy but also combo points. Its more dynamic and fun than "just mana" or "just rage". Granted, many classes got the same style over time, like DKs, monks, paladins, warlocks... but thats okay. What's not okay are other problems with our class, not the system itself. Its totally fine, working good and still very fun. Just our numbers are wrong and our skills could really use a revamp in terms of animation style.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    Please just report trolls. If you don't report them, Mods can't deal with them.
    That's the problem. Mod will see the reports, close the thread and not re-open it. Verain got a very nice thread closed and I feel guilty, because I reported many people there. Then I got my own thread closed, I was told it would be re-opened once it's "cleared out" and it wasn't. What's the point then? People can insult us, but if I dare to say something, it's me who gets infracted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    What exactly with rogue mechanics is dated and not working? CPs? Energy?

    No, none of these are core mechancis that no longer work. We could maybe use a change in energy costs, and a slight nerf to SnD with a buff to other abilities to make the playstyle more interesting, but none of that has anything to do with dated mechanics. If you wanna see dated mechanics then look at old rage, old totems, old blessings, that shit was dated mechanics that they replaced.
    It's not that it's not working, it's that they are outdated. Monks pay energy cost to generate Chi (Combo Points), but their finishers cost no energy. Plus, Chi is on the monk, not on the target. Retribution Paladins got also Combo Points on themselves and they don't pay a big resource cost for using finishers (They just don't run out of mana unless they spam heals, and even then...)

    Three melee DPS specs/classes, one with old mechanics, the other two with the same mechanics, but updated, which is a lot more interesting. I was farming Sha'tari Skyguard reputation on my paladin and having Holy Power on myself is a blessing (no pun intended). Monk? Same. Can generate Chi in one target and unleash it on the next one. It's just great.

    Rogues? Have to pay double energy cost and can't swap unless using an extra ability. I really don't think that generating 5 combo points on something and then using it to Kidney Shot another target would be broken. We can do it every 60 seconds...or every second with a talent. Yet it's, by far, the least used final tier talent.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    It's not that it's not working, it's that they are outdated. Monks pay energy cost to generate Chi (Combo Points), but their finishers cost no energy. Plus, Chi is on the monk, not on the target. Retribution Paladins got also Combo Points on themselves and they don't pay a big resource cost for using finishers (They just don't run out of mana unless they spam heals, and even then...)

    Three melee DPS specs/classes, one with old mechanics, the other two with the same mechanics, but updated, which is a lot more interesting. I was farming Sha'tari Skyguard reputation on my paladin and having Holy Power on myself is a blessing (no pun intended). Monk? Same. Can generate Chi in one target and unleash it on the next one. It's just great.

    Rogues? Have to pay double energy cost and can't swap unless using an extra ability. I really don't think that generating 5 combo points on something and then using it to Kidney Shot another target would be broken. We can do it every 60 seconds...or every second with a talent. Yet it's, by far, the least used final tier talent.
    Well we get most if not all of the energy cost back from Relentless Strikes, so imo the cost of finishers isnt an issue, Id rather see adjustments to the costs of CP builders (Mutilate especially.)

    Also you cant see how Deadly Throw would be abused? :P

    Ive not played Monk and I've not tried Ret his expansion, but Ret had downsides to make up for the points on self, their target swap was much slower than ours due to needing the DoT up from Seal of...Corruption? as well as their main "CP builder" has a CD, while none of ours do. If Sub could get more damage on BS I think most people would be pretty happy with it, its a good fun spec to play and it has lower energy costs and faster CPs.
    Last edited by Xanjori; 2012-11-03 at 09:01 AM.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Well we get most if not all of the energy cost back from Relentless Strikes, so imo the cost of finishers isnt an issue, Id rather see adjustments to the costs of CP builders (Mutilate especially.)

    Also you cant see how Deadly Throw would be abused? :P
    Relentless Strikes is very strange, it essentially makes our finishers free, but it also delays their use until you have gained the minimum amount of energy you need, which begs the question; What's the point of it in the first place!? It punishes us when we can't always use 5-point finishers, despite the fact that we're balanced around doing so, and it effectively does nothing.

    Having Relentless Strikes removed, but the energy cost on finishers removed as well would be a buff;
    - Some finishers cost 35 energy, not 25, that'd save us 10 energy
    - Grants us the ability to finish EXACTLY when we want; last second of Bandit's Guile? Don't worry, you can squeeze in another Eviscerate!
    - Doesn't punish us when 5-point finishers can't be made

    And no, I can't.
    Combo-points-on-the-rogue is not, NOT happening due to balance concerns, it's not happening due to design-philosophies. Hell, we already have a talent that essentially puts them on the rogue, proving that it'd be a non-issue.

  9. #109
    I played a rogue since BC, when I picked up the game. It was my heart and soul. I have a cure for all the PVP issues...bring back stunlocking with maces. The sad fact is I have trouble putting anyone down anymore. So Like a favorite classic car, I shelved my rogue in hopes for better times.

    To GC: Your job isn't easy by any means, I wouldn't want it. I agree with most the observations here, but two stand out, raise the base line damage, and make shadowstep a power open to all builds.

  10. #110
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    What, you honestly think a no CD interrupt would be balanced?
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  11. #111
    I really wish people wouldn't put things in quotes that aren't quotes.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Well we get most if not all of the energy cost back from Relentless Strikes, so imo the cost of finishers isnt an issue, Id rather see adjustments to the costs of CP builders (Mutilate especially.)

    Also you cant see how Deadly Throw would be abused? :P

    Ive not played Monk and I've not tried Ret his expansion, but Ret had downsides to make up for the points on self, their target swap was much slower than ours due to needing the DoT up from Seal of...Corruption? as well as their main "CP builder" has a CD, while none of ours do. If Sub could get more damage on BS I think most people would be pretty happy with it, its a good fun spec to play and it has lower energy costs and faster CPs.
    Some finishers are 35 energy and there's a vast difference between energy cost back and something being free. If it was free, I'd be able to use a finisher at 5 energy, but I can't, I have to wait until 25-35 and then use it and then get the energy back. That's a big difference. Relentless strikes is also punishing non-5 combo points finishers. This is a big deal!

    How could it be abused? Most of your arguments are often based on imagination, on non-existing theorycraft scenarios that lead to nowhere. In order to interrupt, Deadly Throw needs 5 combo points and it uses them, it's not like you can chain-interrupt anyone. So you need to have 5 combo points (and you can't sit on them unless you have Anticipation, and even then, it's a bad idea) and the enemy target must be casting (casts are usually less than 2 seconds long) and in range.

    They need to dot up? Like I don't know, Subtlety rogues with Rupture? With the difference of having to use double resource to get it?
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Some finishers are 35 energy and there's a vast difference between energy cost back and something being free. If it was free, I'd be able to use a finisher at 5 energy, but I can't, I have to wait until 25-35 and then use it and then get the energy back. That's a big difference. Relentless strikes is also punishing non-5 combo points finishers. This is a big deal!

    How could it be abused? Most of your arguments are often based on imagination, on non-existing theorycraft scenarios that lead to nowhere. In order to interrupt, Deadly Throw needs 5 combo points and it uses them, it's not like you can chain-interrupt anyone. So you need to have 5 combo points (and you can't sit on them unless you have Anticipation, and even then, it's a bad idea) and the enemy target must be casting (casts are usually less than 2 seconds long) and in range.

    They need to dot up? Like I don't know, Subtlety rogues with Rupture? With the difference of having to use double resource to get it?
    Its meant to punish non 5 CP finishers, thats the entire point of it, to encourage/reward us for building to 5CPs before finishing.

    Also how is it imagination, you sit on a target, you interrupt its healer with a no CD ranged interrupt. How does that require imagination?

    Also did you seriously just compare how long it takes for Sub to get Rupture up with how long it takes a Ret Paladin to get Censure up?
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Its meant to punish non 5 CP finishers, thats the entire point of it, to encourage/reward us for building to 5CPs before finishing.

    Also how is it imagination, you sit on a target, you interrupt its healer with a no CD ranged interrupt. How does that require imagination?

    Also did you seriously just compare how long it takes for Sub to get Rupture up with how long it takes a Ret Paladin to get Censure up?
    It doesn't NEED to punish us. Using 5 point finishers is already the only way to go if you're dps'ing. We don't need to be punished any further. However, when you do that 3 point Recuperate in PvP? Or when you simply want to apply a Rupture or SnD as fast as possible?
    Let's have a look at Rupture/SnD, shall we?
    Excluding openers, you need to land with a builder, then use those points for an instant SnD/Rupture...
    That's 35-55 energy, depending on the builder, plus an additional 25 energy for that finisher to be up and running... This SHOULD cost us the cost of the builder... However, it comes together for the price of at least 60+ energy, for ONE OF THEM. Add in another and we shoot good and well past 100+ energy, just because we need to be "punished".

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Its meant to punish non 5 CP finishers, thats the entire point of it, to encourage/reward us for building to 5CPs before finishing.

    Also how is it imagination, you sit on a target, you interrupt its healer with a no CD ranged interrupt. How does that require imagination?

    Also did you seriously just compare how long it takes for Sub to get Rupture up with how long it takes a Ret Paladin to get Censure up?
    Really? Like, having higher damage or duration is not enough, that we must have an additional mechanic to punish if you already don't go for 5 combo points? That's not the point of it. Relentless Strike is meant as a secondary energy generator, it shouldn't be a punisher, as in the past it was an option (mandatory though).

    The imagination is when you said it can be abused. Let's see :
    -You are assuming that changes are done in a vacuum, like, that if combo points were placed on the rogue, nothing else, like Deadly Throw CD, would change.
    -If you take Deadly Throw, you're not taking two other talents that may be superior.
    -You are in a situation of being in range with the healer, while on melee with your current target, with 5 unused combo points and the healer happens to cast.

    Is it very useful? Sure. Can it be abused? Can't see how.

    I didn't, I just said that Subtlety rogues also need to dot up to get damage ramping, so the swap is also quite slow.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  16. #116
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    4 CP evenoms dont exist do they?
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    4 CP evenoms dont exist do they?
    Go learn how to have an argument or something. You are terrible at it.

    You can't expect to post one line to answer to tons of paragraphs of what Incineration and me posted just because your arguments are weak and you are trying to grasp for some air.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Go learn how to have an argument or something. You are terrible at it.

    You can't expect to post one line to answer to tons of paragraphs of what Incineration and me posted just because your arguments are weak and you are trying to grasp for some air.
    No, your argument was so shit I only had to post 1 line to counter it. You guys seriously strike me as people that dont actually understand how classes work, and even more specifically you dont understand how your own class works. Its sad, its why I dont bother with the rogue forum half the time because most of the whine here is from people that honestly have no idea how to play the game.

    Like honestly, you want to compare us to Paladins? Please explain to me how a Paladin healer would build HP on a target? I mean seriously, take at least 5 seconds to consider what it is you are talking about.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    No, your argument was so shit I only had to post 1 line to counter it. You guys seriously strike me as people that dont actually understand how classes work, and even more specifically you dont understand how your own class works. Its sad, its why I dont bother with the rogue forum half the time because most of the whine here is from people that honestly have no idea how to play the game.
    Oh man, poor you. Please, stay away from the rogue forum full-time, you are useless.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceJam View Post
    They had one season of OPness. Which can all be attributed to an overpowered PvE trinket and orange daggers that were too easy to get. Take away those two things and their damage was on par with most other classes, and yes they were balanced. They just weren't balanced around those two things I mentioned.
    ONE SEASON?

    RMP Rank one 11 seasons in a row.

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